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Universal non-physical referencing

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  • Universal non-physical referencing

    At David's suggestion, this post from the Bieschel thread has been separated to form a new thread.
    _ -_ - _ - _ - _ - _ - _ -

    After all this criticism of Bieschel, or defense of aspects of it that are only important to critics, I'd like to point something out that came up earlier, then was gone as fast as it came: if the mediums in this study are genuine, then overt physical reference points are unnecessary. By "physical", I mean verbal clues, such as first names, or the physical presence of a specific person.

    What this allows us to contemplate is that communication of this kind may occur via an entirely non-physical reference framework that we are all a part of. This also implies that we are all a part of this non-physical indexing system with or without a medium present. This then brings up the idea of omniscient knowledge, something we have heard described in OOBEs, NDEs, meditation, and various religions.

    All this talk about what can be gotten from a first name, when that is irrelevant to what is really going on with genuine medium communication, is to miss this much larger point: the frame of reference exists entirely on a non-physical level for the spirit, but we are all a part of it while alive because we are spirits also, and this is why we can have OOBEs and NDEs.

    AP

  • #2
    To freshen this up a bit, I'll add something here.

    I dream of ghosts regularly. If they are someone I know and it is the first time I've seen them in a dream as a ghost, I can usually track down some unique confirmatory detail to verify the dream as accurate and paranormal. If it is a stranger, and these are far more common, then it is very difficult to confirm them. Once I was able to confirm such a dream, because the stranger was a relative of someone I did know, though only slightly. Normally, that is not how stranger ghost dreams work. However, that last example is a fairly good one for how after death communication works in these cases, and is natural enough in its motives for me to feel comfortable that it is what it appeared to be.

    Here is what happened: I dreamed that the ghost of a young woman I didn't know came up to me with an urgent message for a relative of hers. She identified him as a clerk I recognized from an art supply store I had been to a few times. She said that he was despondent over her death. He has was drinking heavily and taking drugs. She implored me to warn him to stop or he too would die, and die soon.

    I considered not passing on the message, but eventually changed my mind and went to the shop to deliver it to the clerk. I told him the dream, though I substituted "it will be very bad" for "you will die" and left out the mention of drugs. The main point was that I wanted to know if a relative of his had died recently. To sum it all up, his sister-in-law, who he was very close to, had died young just the previous week in a car crash while stopped at a light. A police car in a high speed pursuit slammed into her car. He was quite upset and admitted to drinking heavily. He also confirmed the "dire consequences" by saying that he had a dream similar to mine in the days after her death, where she had warned him as she had me, about his substance abuse.

    So this is the ghost of someone I don't know, who has found me regardless. Since I barely knew her brother-in-law, having only asked him for certain paints a few times while in the store, her choice of me seems strange. However, I have demonstrated some sensitivity to this kind of communication and it may be that this ghost had a way of seeing or knowing that and focused on me for that reason.

    When my Aunt Rita died quite young, in a car crash just a week or two before her wedding day, several of my relatives dreamed of her. In one of the more interesting dreams (a dream that is now disavowed by the person who had it, so fair warning) my aunt wanted to know why everyone hated her now. It became clear that she didn't realize she had died, and had been trying to speak to friends and family every since her death, without luck. She thought they hated her because they wouldn't respond to her. The dreamer told her she had died, and then Rita looked quite upset and disappeared. I then started having dreams of her, some of which contained paranormally-derived information, and Rita stopped appearing to other relatives.

    In Rita's case, I knew her even less well than the art store clerk. I'd met her twice in my life and may have spoken to her for a grand total of one hour in my entire life. Regardless, the family connection might have been the avenue by which she eventually came to me about a year after her death. What I found interesting in her case is that she seemed to be employing a physical-based search pattern to find someone who would respond to her. She was methodically visiting relative after relative, some of whom remembered dreaming of her, until she was 1) told that she had died, 2) found me, and we sorted out her dilemma.

    This may be different from the way the first ghost behaved. My impression is that the difference stems from my aunt's refusal to accept she had died and the other woman's immediate or near immediate acceptance of this fact. My aunt used a physical search pattern to little effect, while the other woman reached out using some non-physical reference system and achieved success rather quickly. It may be important to note that my aunt was an atheist at the time of her death, though I have no information on that question for the other ghost.

    Without going into all the details because it is a long story and it is on my website, I once had a very strong need to have a certain package that was mailed from Boston to Wisconsin to be misdirected to my apartment in New Jersey. I made a prolonged mental effort to cause this to happen, and it did. In that case, several people had to cooperate on an unconscious level to bring about that result, but I had no idea who they were. Just like the sister-in-law, I had a message, but didn't know who should receive it apart from knowing that whoever it was would have some influence over the package. This is where I start thinking about psi as not being neutral, but intelligent, and to an extent alien as well.

    I do not mean "alien" as in "from outer space", but "incomprehensible from our frame of reference." The reason is that it is very hard from our physical point of view to understand the many ways our unconsciously expressed wishes may find fruition by having been communicated and acted upon without our knowledge, or not, depending on how they are received.

    I hope this is enough to start with...

    AP

    Comment


    • #3
      Paqart,

      That account is quite remarkable, but I think it is important to remember that the rest of us don't know quite how to respond, in the sense that we can't validate any of what you say independently. However your account is valuable because it indicates the type of phenomena that we may be dealing with here.

      As I said, it does seem to me that several lines of thought suggest that there could be a common pool of knowledge (both general and individual) that we can access to differing degrees. It seems to me that that is the only reasonable way to explain the behaviour of autistic savants, who for example, do various arithmetic tasks, while not even knowing how to add up. The musical savants (including some mentally capable individuals) - who are more numerous - also seem to skip a whole chunk of learning that the rest of us need if we want to play an instrument - or indeed compose.

      Remote viewing - which seems to be a fairly robust phenomenon - should also, I guess be seen as dipping into that pooled knowledge.

      You have written several times about ghosts that don't know they are dead. If this is true (I have to keep saying that, because I am a skeptic in the true sense of the word), it implies that we don't all die and suddenly see the big picture.

      David

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by David Bailey View Post
        Paqart,

        That account is quite remarkable, but I think it is important to remember that the rest of us don't know quite how to respond, in the sense that we can't validate any of what you say independently.
        Yes, I am aware of that, but have decided to try and have a real dialogue here instead of yet another boring proof-oriented debate. If any of the "skeptics" on this board want to demonstrate genuine curiosity about these things, they can ask questions instead of immediately jumping into debunking mode or, more commonly, the position that anecdotes aren't evidence so we'll stop right here.

        That latter position is as if a witness to an auto accident walked into a police station to give a report but the police evinced no curiosity whatsoever. "That's just an anecdote" they might say, "Come in with the whole car and maybe we'll believe you." Anyone can see that as an unreasonable request. Similarly, to expect all comments here to meet some personal standard of evidence without making any effort to investigate strangles opportunity for genuinely interesting material being discussed. I'm not saying you do this, just that it happens.

        My advice to skeptics who don't know how to respond is this: forget about trying to prove anything on the basis of what you think you know. Instead, ask questions you think are important and I'll be happy to answer them. Ultimately, you'll be left with deciding whether I am truthful or not, but that is what happens in all situations anyway, like when deciding which politician is more honest.

        However your account is valuable because it indicates the type of phenomena that we may be dealing with here.
        I wish I saw this attitude more often.

        As I said, it does seem to me that several lines of thought suggest that there could be a common pool of knowledge (both general and individual) that we can access to differing degrees. It seems to me that that is the only reasonable way to explain the behaviour of autistic savants, who for example, do various arithmetic tasks, while not even knowing how to add up. The musical savants (including some mentally capable individuals) - who are more numerous - also seem to skip a whole chunk of learning that the rest of us need if we want to play an instrument - or indeed compose.

        Remote viewing - which seems to be a fairly robust phenomenon - should also, I guess be seen as dipping into that pooled knowledge.
        In my dreams, spirit guides have shown me this universal repository of knowledge several times. The form it takes differs with each presentation, but they are all the same. The idea is that all things are in themselves a full record of all of their parts and their individual identity. Beyond that, the pattern of all interactions is in itself its own record also, and immediately visible on inspection. What seems to allow this (this part is conjecture) is a combination of the nature of spirit combined with the 4-dimensional quality of space. Like a cartoon drawing of a fast-moving arm, where four or five arms are drawn superimposed on each other, so too in the timeless non-physical space our spirits occupy, may all physical things be seen in their entirety.

        I have also been told, again in dreams and by spirit guides, that while all this information exists and is available, not all of it may be brought back to our waking state. It has never been explained why, but my impression is that it has to do with not disrupting things that may not be disrupted. In other words, it is a matter of permission. Some things we are allowed to know consciously, and other things we are not allowed to know. I can imagine many good reasons for this. Even in normal physical life there are times when true knowledge can be a very bad thing to have, for instance when a partner's infidelity leads to double-murder and suicide. On a spiritual level, it may be that certain knowledge can destroy the value of our physical experiences, much as knowing the solution to a puzzle destroys or impairs our ability to understand how the solution was worked out.

        You have written several times about ghosts that don't know they are dead. If this is true (I have to keep saying that, because I am a skeptic in the true sense of the word), it implies that we don't all die and suddenly see the big picture.

        David
        I have to say that this is definitely the case. I've run into this myself many times. In fact, on many of those occasions I have tried to explain to the ghost that he or she has died, and am often unsuccessful. This isn't the case in all situations. I remember one vivid example where a spirit guide took me to a battlefield. I saw soldiers dropping all around me, their spirits emerging as their bodies fell. Some recognized that they had died and left immediately. Others stood around for a bit, confused, and others kept reacting to the ongoing battle as if nothing had happened.

        AP

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sandy B
          That's been my experience of things as well. I once came across a man who had died in a car accident, and he was very much in shock. It was like talking to someone who has woken up in the ICU of a hospital and isn't sure about where they are and what is going on. The poor man had been trying to ask what had happened to him, but until I came along no one was responding to him. He didn't even know how long that he had been dead (it was about 5 years).
          Is there something stopping these ghosts from figuring it out? Five years: no one acknowledging him, presumably not eating or sleeping, or feeling the elements - or do these ghosts do all that stuff to. I can understand initial confusion, but at one point some conclusions would be drawn. Unless something deliberately prevents that.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Arouet View Post
            Is there something stopping these ghosts from figuring it out? Five years: no one acknowledging him, presumably not eating or sleeping, or feeling the elements - or do these ghosts do all that stuff to. I can understand initial confusion, but at one point some conclusions would be drawn. Unless something deliberately prevents that.
            The first time I ever remember seeing one of these was a man who had drowned in a river. He was so attached to his physical experience that he continued to think he was drowning for many years. The way it worked was something like this: After he drowned, his spirit came out of his body within the water. He was confused by seeing his own body sinking to the bottom and imagined it was a hallucination. He was made weak mentally by this idea, and was a bit fascinated to see his body in this state, and gave up on trying to free himself from the current. As a spirit, this wouldn't have made any difference, but he was too involved to realize that. He sank down to the bottom of the river bed alongside his body, then realized that he was still alive. He imagined that he still had a reservoir of air in his lungs, forgot everything else, and "swam" upwards to save himself. As he did so, he became afraid of the water again, and of losing his breath. This caused him to panic and he lost his will to surface, causing him to sink to the bottom again.

            After a time during which he spent mulling his condition in a confused state of mind, he saw some swimmers above him. He went to the surface to make contact, but they couldn't see him. Finding himself with other people and at the surface of the water caused him to panic yet again. In doing this, he caused himself to go through the motions of his death by drowning yet again. For years he had gone through these cycles, locked within his fear of death, fear of the water, and conscious realization that something was wrong, but his fear kept him from discovering what it was.

            I tried to explain what had happened, but he started panicking again, forgot all about me, and went into his drowning sequence, just like a broken record. He probably would have come out of it eventually, but most likely had some kind of spiritual help to do it.

            AP
            Last edited by paqart; November 20th, 2010, 11:06 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              So what's keeping hm in this loop? What causes him to forget? What has happened to his analytical abilities? Why can't he recognize the pattern? Merely being "afraid" doesn't answer this question. He must be continuously losing his memory/or lost his pattern recognition/or something.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by paqart
                The first time I ever remember seeing one of these was a man who had drowned in a river. He was so attached to his physical experience that he continued to think he was drowning for many years. The way it worked was something like this: After he drowned, his spirit came out of his body within the water.
                What do you mean by "within the water"? The spirit world isn't physical, is it? Why would his spirit be in the water?

                ~~ Paul

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Arouet View Post
                  So what's keeping hm in this loop? What causes him to forget? What has happened to his analytical abilities? Why can't he recognize the pattern? Merely being "afraid" doesn't answer this question. He must be continuously losing his memory/or lost his pattern recognition/or something.
                  My impression was that it was a combination of not accepting that he was dead and being afraid of his situation with a bit of trying to figure it out thrown in. He was in a kind of daze most of the time, then would look at where he was and his survival instinct would kick in. This would last until it was evident something fishy was going on and then he'd get contemplative, wondering why he could "breathe" underwater. It may not make sense to you, but I've seen enough of the these to say that ghosts can have a variety of responses to being dead, and one of those reactions is to totally reject the idea.

                  My impression is that they eventually come around, but by our way of reckoning time it could take quite a while.

                  AP

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Arouet View Post
                    So what's keeping hm in this loop? What causes him to forget? What has happened to his analytical abilities? Why can't he recognize the pattern? Merely being "afraid" doesn't answer this question. He must be continuously losing his memory/or lost his pattern recognition/or something.
                    That is exactly what I have thought too.
                    If one assume for arguments sake that all the similar stories of ghost interactions and phenomenon are true and happening, there is an insane amount of questions to be asked.
                    How and why are certain people(ghost) a victim of getting stuck?
                    A traumatic death just in itself doesn't explain it, since pretty much every death are traumatic in one way or the other.
                    If it is that the person(ghost) hasn't come to terms with the fact that he is dead, why would that be a blocking. Why couldn't some other spirit reach out to him and pull him out of the cycle.
                    The meaning of the saying: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" comes to mind.

                    An substantial part of perception, intelligence and ability to draw conclusion seems lost on those spirits, how come?
                    If there is a "system" and "rules" to all of this, I think the "game" sucks.

                    This is just a surface scratch of the millions of questions one asks when contemplating these things. Dont get me started on the acting of poltergeist.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pollux View Post
                      How and why are certain people(ghost) a victim of getting stuck?
                      A traumatic death just in itself doesn't explain it, since pretty much every death are traumatic in one way or the other.
                      If it is that the person(ghost) hasn't come to terms with the fact that he is dead, why would that be a blocking. Why couldn't some other spirit reach out to him and pull him out of the cycle.
                      I don't think a traumatic death has anything to do with it at all. From my experiences, it looks more like the person's beliefs and personality at the time of death are the biggest factor. If they are primarily focused on their physical environment, that is, obsessed by it or overwhelmed by it, they have a much more difficult time freeing themselves of it than people who are not obsessed in the same way.

                      All people have spirits available to help them when they die, but it is up them to ignore this help, and it does happen sometimes. It isn't a matter of being a rigged game as you suggest, but of being so confused by the merry-go-round that once it stops, you keep running around inside of it wondering when it will stop. If people tell you that it is stopped and you can safely get off, you don't believe them because it still seems to be moving because you are moving.

                      AP

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by paqart View Post
                        I don't think a traumatic death has anything to do with it at all. From my experiences, it looks more like the person's beliefs and personality at the time of death are the biggest factor. If they are primarily focused on their physical environment, that is, obsessed by it or overwhelmed by it, they have a much more difficult time freeing themselves of it than people who are not obsessed in the same way.
                        By dying of an accident under violent circumstances or gasping for your breath in a hospital bed fully knowing that you could die any moment, with death anxiety and futile strive to hang on to life, one are pretty focused on the physical world.
                        When passing over one would think that by realising that there is a other sort of existence the focus would shift pretty instantly.
                        But, who knows.

                        All people have spirits available to help them when they die, but it is up them to ignore this help, and it does happen sometimes. It isn't a matter of being a rigged game as you suggest, but of being so confused by the merry-go-round that once it stops, you keep running around inside of it wondering when it will stop. If people tell you that it is stopped and you can safely get off, you don't believe them because it still seems to be moving because you are moving.
                        If it is possible with communication between spirits one would think that they possess the power of reasoning and persuasion.
                        But I can imagine it could be like one person reasoning with another person, suffering from depression, what a wonderful world it is and that there is a sunny day, and that he should pull him self together and be happy.
                        It is not quite that easy.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          This reminds me of Hugh Dowding, RAF commander at the Battle of Britain. He claimed to have contact with some of the young pilots that were lost, and that sometimes they had no idea they were dead.
                          In one of his books he said that they recreated the life that they had, often ignoring any discrepancies that would otherwise be a clue that things were not as they should be.

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