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The Death KNELL FOR NDE's.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Bernardo View Post
    I'm not surprised at all that people find similarities between NDEs and lucid dreams. I would be surprised if they did NOT find such similarities, since both mechanisms involve the de-activation of parts of the brain (the pre-frontal cortex in the case of lucid dreaming). If the so-called "brain as a filter" hypothesis holds true, this is exactly what you would expect. I wrote about it before: Metaphysical Speculations: Consciousness and memory

    I don't understand all the fuzz, as if finding this similarity was in any way detrimental to the validity of NDEs. (and I won't get into obvious points like NDEs happening under no EEG, while lucid dreams produce clear EEG signals still, etc...)

    Frankly, this thread is almost boring...
    Thank you. This is the crux of the whole issue and it's barely been discussed in this 7 page thread.

    Not to mention the conclusion of the study doesn't even follow from the premise. If you told me that you just got back from Africa, and I trained several lucid dreamers to experience elephants, giraffes, and other wildlife over a savanna landscape, does that mean Africa only exists in your mind?

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    • #62
      Alright, lemme ask you if this makes sense:

      They TRAINED people to have ndes, and then made them lucidly dream about them. Look at a couple of the testimonies in the paper, if you haven't read the paper. Most of them new what they were looking for in the ndes.

      If this is the death of a paranormal explanation to ndes, then flat earth society just won because NASA can't prove the photos were taken from space.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Sock View Post
        Thank you. This is the crux of the whole issue and it's barely been discussed in this 7 page thread.

        Not to mention the conclusion of the study doesn't even follow from the premise. If you told me that you just got back from Africa, and I trained several lucid dreamers to experience elephants, giraffes, and other wildlife over a savanna landscape, does that mean Africa only exists in your mind?
        We can go out and verify the existence of Africa , Africa is open to public inspection, NDE's aren't. So are you sure that such experiences are outside the mind?

        You see, many of you here are assuming that something like a disembodied consciousness is true, you don't know. Everything about this subject is open-ended and the investigators are proceeding in a cautious manner and looking at all the confounding possibilities- as they should.

        You make proclamations that all cognitive phenomena must register on an EEG. You don't know that for sure , at all.

        You make proclamations about when the person allegedly had his NDE, you don't know that for sure. It could have formed whilst falling into unconsciousness or coming out of unconsciousness or any time up until people who have had them are interviewed. You don't know for sure.

        You proclaim that a person can't form memories in the apparent confusion of falling into unconsciousness or coming out of unconsciousness. A blanket level of hopeless confusion for each and every person? You know that for a fact? You know for certain that under varying conditions that it's impossible?

        And you can sit there and claim that physical explanations are impossible with these NDE's?

        You're of kind of like an angry lynch mob convinced of the guilt of a person whilst the sheriff is trying to give his charge the benefit of a dispassionate examination of the facts.

        And the irony is even those you draw support upon aren't convinced. They're still investigating and testing.
        Last edited by Lyander; March 22nd, 2012, 02:04 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Lyander View Post
          You're of kind of like an angry lynch mob convinced of the guilt of a person whilst the sheriff is trying to give his charge the benefit of a dispassionate examination of the facts.
          People are just pointing out flaws in your arguments.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Lyander View Post
            We can go out and verify the existence of Africa , Africa is open to public inspection, NDE's aren't. So are you sure that such experiences are outside the mind?
            Bear in mind that the existence of other peoples' minds are not open to public inspection even before we die.

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            • #66
              Something that came to mind with the mention of lucid dreams and conditioning: if it turns out that some people can spontaneously lapse into lucid dreams under normal, waking conditions (kind of like narcolepsy), it could account for something the Forteans pointed out - that the content of unusual or paranormal experiences sometimes seems to follow broad historical trends. For instance, in the past people seem to have reported seeing fairies or sprites far often than they do now, and are much more likely to believe/encounter things like aliens. Physical mediumship also seems far less common, etc.

              If these somehow involved lucid dreams, and the content could be conditioned, it could partly explain why these things seem to have trends or be connected to cultural beliefs.

              (I think an alternative hypothesis is that our intentions somehow affect our shared reality.)

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              • #67
                People have been biologically brain dead for well over 6 minutes and survived or come back to life intact. Some come back with some brain damage, some come back intact.

                Thread fail.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by gumpi View Post
                  People have been biologically brain dead for well over 6 minutes and survived or come back to life intact. Some come back with some brain damage, some come back intact.

                  Thread fail.
                  It's much more complicated then you realize to determine if a brain is dead. If a brain is dead it's not a reversible condition. More http://www.aan.com/globals/axon/assets/7353.pdf

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by really View Post
                    It's much more complicated then you realize to determine if a brain is dead. If a brain is dead it's not a reversible condition. More http://www.aan.com/globals/axon/assets/7353.pdf
                    Per the OP who distinguished between clinical death and biological death, i said that people come back from biological death after 6 minutes.

                    That's it, that is all i wanted to add to this thread and i am signing out.

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                    • #70
                      Hey Lyander, is your name based off of Lysander from A Midsummer's Night Dream?

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                      • #71
                        Guys, nothing to worry about.

                        I just had a conversation with one of my friends who (a) is scientifically trained, and (b) had had a very deep NDE when he was very sick.

                        He read the paper and said: This only proves that lucid dreams can be trained and that thus NDEs can be faked.

                        The real NDE is always a spontaneous event, without foreknowledge, mostly under life threatening circumstances - but can also happen while under deep stress.

                        That so-called study has not proved at all that NDE's are merely lucid dreams.
                        Last edited by Smithy; March 22nd, 2012, 04:47 PM. Reason: typo

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Smithy
                          He read the paper and said: This only proves that lucid dreams can be trained and that thus NDEs can be faked.

                          The real NDE is always a spontaneous event, without foreknowledge, mostly under life threatening circumstances - but can also happen while under deep stress.

                          That so-called study has not proved at all that NDE's are merely lucid dreams.
                          Seems like a "No True NDE" argument again.

                          Do you really want to argue that if (I say if) we can elicit all the aspects of an NDE under safe conditions, that still doesn't mean that we know what an NDE is? That seems rather like saying that if you drink H. pylori and get an ulcer, that still doesn't mean that we know what bacterial ulcers are.

                          ~~ Paul

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                          • #73
                            I sit on the fence when it comes to NDEs but it is obvious to me that lucid dreams could never disprove them. For a start, we would have to be able to prove where the material for such dreams originate. I'm fairly regular lucid dreamer and I would say that this has made me even more doubtful about materialist science.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by happyknownothing View Post
                              I sit on the fence when it comes to NDEs but it is obvious to me that lucid dreams could never disprove them. For a start, we would have to be able to prove where the material for such dreams originate. I'm fairly regular lucid dreamer and I would say that this has made me even more doubtful about materialist science.
                              This whole thread was just a flyby trolling. You can tell by the title: Death KNELL FOR NDE's.

                              So much for critical thinking.

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                              • #75
                                Other people have already pointed this out, but you can train yourself to do anything in a lucid dream. If you tell people to "see a light", "walk through a tunnel", and "feel good" they can reproduce all these experiences at will using well-known techniques, just as I can imagine all of them myself right now. But to claim this--the strength of one's imagination--as an explanation for a critical, near-death situation, in which a person is unwillingly exposed to a variety of consistent, life-like experiences, is to put the wagon before the horse.

                                This study is interesting, but supporting it as any kind of case against NDEs demonstrates that even open-minded skeptics can occasionally fall into wishful thinking.

                                - Johann

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