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Full Philosophical Implications of Precognition

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Juan View Post
    The precognition does not say anything about an afterlife. If you want to investigate about the afterlife, you investigates OBEs, NDEs, mediumship, etc., evidence that on my part indicates that it is more likely that there is an afterlife.
    At first glance Juan, I agree with you, as it seems quite clear that this is the case. However, I can't shake the feeling that it is perhaps not so straightforward.
    That through a kind of domino effect, one in some way affects the others, or at the very least, that the admittance of ANY one of the range of traditional psi phenomenon so severely undermines the materialist paradigm, that while something like precognition may not directly offer proof of continued survival, it provides fertile ground by totally overturning the materialist background of most of what we thought we knew.

    Originally posted by Juan View Post
    Interestingly there are also many people who are convinced of the existence of telepathy but they are not convinced of the existence of precognition, because a non inferencial knowledge of the future seems that would bring problems with the theory of relativity, whether an effect can occur before the cause.
    It's quite amusing, as for me, precognition is undoubtedly real only in the sense of the old "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude, as I have quite literally 'seen it', so am personally convinced of its authenticity. I don't see how relativity is violated by precognition, particularly when it allows for odd theoretical things like Time Travel.
    Tell me if I have this wrong. Einsteins theory of relativity, fused two dimensions previously thought of as seperate, time and space, to give us space-time.
    The faster a material object travels, the more its mass increases, but the slower time moves relative to the speeding object. At the speed of light, time effectively stands still. Material objects however are vastly restricted to speeds far far below light speed, as at the speed of light, any mass it had would become infinite. But I have always thought this cannot apply to anything without mass - i.e. MIND. Mind and thought, having no physical mass, are not restricted by relativity, so can achieve faster than light movement, which would necessarily imply a moving through time.
    Of course, I could be way off here these thoughts occur to me though.

    Originally posted by Juan View Post
    It seems that it is always possible to consider that the brain has certain properties by quantic physics allowing precognition, but at first glance the precognition falsifies the current model of the mind.
    Sure. I have to say, to me it is quite amusing. When materialists start appealing to quantum wierdness to account for precognition and make room for its existence without too much collateral damage to their fundamental position, in order to hold on to their materialist paradigm of the primacy of the brain and matter.
    This really speaks to me of the oddness of their position.
    Quantum science, really does alot to jeopardise and undermine materialism, in the sense that it has revealed matter itself to be incredibly ellusive. The closer and closer they look, the less and less evidence there is of anything solidly existing that we can call matter. There are no fundamental 'Atoms' in the original meaning of the word. Quite funny that at the macro level, materialists argue the primacy of matter, and that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of their being matter in the first place, in the form of a brain - but one could quite easily argue that matter has been shown to be largely an illusion. We are really dealing with fields and forces, and looked at In this way, there is alot of room for consciousness to exist independently as a field, and to be primary in relation to matter.
    This is getting interesting

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by David Bailey View Post
      I think the point is that skeptics have a certain logic in demanding higher standards of proof for ψ, until at least one piece is proven - such as precognition. After that point, we obviously know the world doesn't follow the assumed materialist model - so we really need accept the remaining evidence using the normal rules of science.

      (I use the word prove in the rather lose sense that it has when applied to science issues).

      David
      I couldn't agree more, and I think you have rather succinctly captured the essence of what I have been trying to relay and explore through my ramblings.

      Thanks David

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by soulatman View Post
        Hi everyone,

        I would like to ask all the wonderful skeptiko forum members to contribute to a discussion on the philosophical implications of precognition.

        If (and I realise that for some people here that is going to be a very big IF), if precognition were one day demonstrated in such a satisfactory way that there were no way for anyone to deny its existence, what would the philosophical ramifications be?

        Would such a demonstration signal the death knell for materialist and reductionist models of the world?

        Does it carry the same sort of implications that NDE's or mediumship carry?

        Would it necessarily destroy the 'mind equals brain' hypothesis?

        Would we need a form of philosophical idealism to account for such a phenomena?

        Do all psi phenomena carry the same set of implications? (i.e. would successful demonstration of telepathy, or mediumship carry the same set of implications as succesful demonstration of precognition?)

        I would really love to hear peoples thoughts on this and really flesh this one out as much as possible. I look forward to the interesting ideas and debate that I am sure will follow.

        Soul
        If both the past and future exists (as current physics implies), then why would precognition be any more surprising than remembering the past? Perhaps our memories are a type of perception of the past and precognition is a type of perception of the future?

        Anyway I don't see why precognition is any more intrinsically surprising than personal memories. So if our memories are compatible with materialism then so is precognition.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Juan View Post
          The precognition does not say anything about an afterlife. If you want to investigate about the afterlife, you investigates OBEs, NDEs, mediumship, etc., evidence that on my part indicates that it is more likely that there is an afterlife.



          The existence of a psi phenomenon does not imply the existence of other psi phenomena. We have to examine the evidence of each psi phenomenon to see if there exists the psi phenomenon.

          On the other hand, the parapsychologists are quite convinced that the names "telepathy", " clairvoyance", " precognition", etc., only are labels that can refer to the same type of phenomena that are displayed in different ways. Interestingly there are also many people who are convinced of the existence of telepathy but they are not convinced of the existence of precognition, because a non inferencial knowledge of the future seems that would bring problems with the theory of relativity, whether an effect can occur before the cause.



          It seems that it is always possible to consider that the brain has certain properties by quantic physics allowing precognition, but at first glance the precognition falsifies the current model of the mind.
          psi may not provide direct evidence of survival by it strongly indirectly suggest it.. minds being able to reach outside of minds for information... their isn't any material mechanism for psi xurrently and it very likely the psi involves the mind...

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Buggy713 View Post
            psi may not provide direct evidence of survival by it strongly indirectly suggest it.. minds being able to reach outside of minds for information... their isn't any material mechanism for psi xurrently and it very likely the psi involves the mind...
            This is the feeling I also have. It seems somehow speaks to a broader paradigm where consciousness or mind is far more central and primary than our current paradigm allows.

            Indeed, the current materialist (promisory materialist) paradigm say that mind and cosciousness is merely an epiphenomenon of the brain, and is not real.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by soulatman View Post
              It's quite amusing, as for me, precognition is undoubtedly real only in the sense of the old "I'll believe it when I see it" attitude, as I have quite literally 'seen it', so am personally convinced of its authenticity.
              Ok, but the deniers can always argue that you have some experience, but you have not experienced that these experiences are caused by the future, because it could be a coincidence (I do not claim that this is so, however).

              Originally posted by soulatman View Post
              I don't see how relativity is violated by precognition, particularly when it allows for odd theoretical things like Time Travel.
              Tell me if I have this wrong. Einsteins theory of relativity, fused two dimensions previously thought of as seperate, time and space, to give us space-time.
              The faster a material object travels, the more its mass increases, but the slower time moves relative to the speeding object. At the speed of light, time effectively stands still. Material objects however are vastly restricted to speeds far far below light speed, as at the speed of light, any mass it had would become infinite. But I have always thought this cannot apply to anything without mass - i.e. MIND. Mind and thought, having no physical mass, are not restricted by relativity, so can achieve faster than light movement, which would necessarily imply a moving through time.
              According to the theory of relativity, the speed of light is the speed limit of ordinary matter/energy, so we do not know what could go at higher speeds.

              Originally posted by soulatman View Post
              When materialists start appealing to quantum wierdness to account for precognition and make room for its existence without too much collateral damage to their fundamental position, in order to hold on to their materialist paradigm of the primacy of the brain and matter.
              This really speaks to me of the oddness of their position.
              Quantum science, really does alot to jeopardise and undermine materialism, in the sense that it has revealed matter itself to be incredibly ellusive. The closer and closer they look, the less and less evidence there is of anything solidly existing that we can call matter. There are no fundamental 'Atoms' in the original meaning of the word. Quite funny that at the macro level, materialists argue the primacy of matter, and that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of their being matter in the first place, in the form of a brain - but one could quite easily argue that matter has been shown to be largely an illusion. We are really dealing with fields and forces, and looked at In this way, there is alot of room for consciousness to exist independently as a field, and to be primary in relation to matter.
              I agree, but you look at this article that I have found:

              http://goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2008/Chik.pdf

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Interesting Ian View Post
                If both the past and future exists (as current physics implies), then why would precognition be any more surprising than remembering the past? Perhaps our memories are a type of perception of the past and precognition is a type of perception of the future?

                Anyway I don't see why precognition is any more intrinsically surprising than personal memories. So if our memories are compatible with materialism then so is precognition.
                This occurred to me many years ago after the 1979 Sargent experience.

                As the last parcel of information which was purely precog (the picture wasn't seen or sent by the sender in the Gz tandem) I had noticed that the experience, and my mentation, seemed to me very similar to 'memory'.

                I then realised that after many years of research, there was still no real understanding of how memory is stored in the brain, though this was the model.

                It appeared that the model for memory storage had evolved somewhat, having originally used the metaphor of a library, tape recording, holography, etc, but still with no isolation of the mechanism involved.

                It struck me that if precognition is experienced as subjectively 'like memory', and as the memory-like subjective experience CAN'T be a product of 'retrieval' from any sort of storage centre in the brain, for the obvious reason that the trigger event hasn't actually entered the brain via the normal sensory channels yet and so can't have been laid down in any in-brain system, it's possible that memory isn't stored in the brain at all.

                If precognition is an accessing of a 'future state' of my consciousness on the body's timeline, maybe memory is the same 'mechanism' accessing 'past' states, requiring no storage facility at all!

                In this model, a radio or TV would be the best metaphor, it can tune to all manner of interesting information, but NONE is stored inside its material structure.

                Under normal circumstances, the system is biased to accessing past states. As precognition definitely does happen, and can be demonstrated quite easily under controlled conditions, it's clear that under some circumstances, the bias switches to allow 'future states' to be accessed....often as an early warning system.

                Juan.....
                http://goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2008/Chik.pdf

                Interesting article. I must say, I had played with the idea of a time reversed 'carrier wave' based on something like the elusive tachyons, travelling backwards in time from some source, and somehow allowing access to future states of consciousness.

                Maybe something like this does occur....it certainly allows materialists to latch onto a straw of hope!
                Last edited by Ian Holfield; October 31st, 2013, 05:40 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Interesting Ian View Post
                  If both the past and future exists (as current physics implies), then why would precognition be any more surprising than remembering the past? Perhaps our memories are a type of perception of the past and precognition is a type of perception of the future?
                  If so, then the precognition would be as common as memory, which obviously is not. So we have now got to explain this asymmetry between past and future. I explain this because if the majority of the past is fixed, most of the future is indefinite. The precognition may only it acts on those future events that are already defined by the present situation.

                  I know this goes against the block universe interpretation of the theory of relativity, but if we consider the Heisenberg principle, then it is more clear that this interpretation is not correct.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Buggy713 View Post
                    psi may not provide direct evidence of survival by it strongly indirectly suggest it.. minds being able to reach outside of minds for information... their isn't any material mechanism for psi xurrently and it very likely the psi involves the mind...
                    I agree, but what interests us is the issue of the afterlife, then it is preferable to investigate the phenomena that point directly towards an afterlife as apparitions and mediumship.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Just found this in the article Juan posted a link to...

                      2. I don't believe that consciousness can affect the universe. Like most
                      neuroscientists, I believe that consciousness, free will, qualia, etc. are all
                      generated by neural activities, and are therefore illusions.

                      3.I believe in classical physicalism. The universe is objectively real, independent of observers. Also, everything can be reduced to physics.

                      4.I only believe in certain types of psychic phenomena including teleportation and premonition, but I seriously doubt the authenticity of psychokinesis
                      How can anyone 'believe in' teleportation but not PK? I'm puzzled.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ian Holfield View Post
                        This occurred to me many years ago after the 1979 Sargent experience.

                        As the last parcel of information which was purely precog (the picture wasn't seen or sent by the sender in the Gz tandem) I had noticed that the experience, and my mentation, seemed to me very similar to 'memory'.

                        I then realised that after many years of research, there was still no real understanding of how memory is stored in the brain, though this was the model.

                        It appeared that the model for memory storage had evolved somewhat, having originally used the metaphor of a library, tape recording, holography, etc, but still with no isolation of the mechanism involved.

                        It struck me that if precognition is experienced as subjectively 'like memory', and as the memory-like subjective experience CAN'T be a product of 'retrieval' from any sort of storage centre in the brain, for the obvious reason that the trigger event hasn't actually entered the brain via the normal sensory channels yet and so can't have been laid down in any in-brain system, it's possible that memory isn't stored in the brain at all.

                        If precognition is an accessing of a 'future state' of my consciousness on the body's timeline, maybe memory is the same 'mechanism' accessing 'past' states, requiring no storage facility at all!

                        In this model, a radio or TV would be the best metaphor, it can tune to all manner of interesting information, but NONE is stored inside its material structure.

                        Under normal circumstances, the system is biased to accessing past states. As precognition definitely does happen, and can be demonstrated quite easily under controlled conditions, it's clear that under some circumstances, the bias switches to allow 'future states' to be accessed....often as an early warning system.

                        Juan.....
                        http://goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2008/Chik.pdf

                        Interesting article. I must say, I had played with the idea of a time reversed 'carrier wave' based on something like the elusive tachyons, travelling backwards in time from some source, and somehow allowing access to future states of consciousness.

                        Maybe something like this does occur....it certainly allows materialists to latch onto a straw of hope!


                        We can't be 100% sure that psi isn't material... but materialists can't use this paper to prove it.........

                        His material theory for precongnition relies on a interpertation of quantum mechanics which posulates the existence of retrocasual material waves which can interact with the brain to transfer information, but like tachyons, there is no evidence that these waves even exist and second of all according to the theory there isn't any possible way you could prove its existence because of how the waves behave... in the orginial theory (Cramer transcrantional interperatation) these waves are destroyed when they come incontact the the material brain and there isn't any way to extract information from the waves because the information isn't stable enough... the author tries to dodge this question by invoking neural oscilltations and sychrony... but he ignores the fact that neural binding theory requires the transfer of information between neurons in order to be viable... he thinks that there is an "indirect" way for information transfer betweens the waves and the brain without really doing it by invoking neural oscilltations... but neural oscilltations involve the direct trasnfer of information

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Buggy713 View Post
                          ... but neural oscilltations involve the direct trasnfer of information
                          Yeah, me too

                          Joking aside, I think I get the gist of it, and what really amazes me is the lengths that materialists will go to try and explain phenomena that cannot be accomodated by their paradigm.

                          It sounds like what is being attempted here, is a way of explaining precognition, and a kind of telepathic transmission of the precognitive information from out there somewhere directly into someones mind (brain) through something called neural oscillations ... Yadda yadda yadda.

                          Trying desperately to cling to a materialist paradigm, just won't work.

                          Wow, and yet people who believe psi is entirely possible, and that a different paradigm may be operating are called fantasists by these materialists? Ya gotta laugh at the irony.
                          Last edited by soulatman; October 31st, 2013, 04:39 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Ian Holfield View Post
                            How can anyone 'believe in' teleportation but not PK? I'm puzzled.
                            The same thought myself. Evidence of the teleportation is weaker than the evidence for psychokinesis, and even if the teleportation is done at will, this is a type of psychokinesis as this will affect the matter without the motor apparatus.

                            Anyway this has nothing to do with the physical theory of precognition held by the author. Maybe Buggy's criticism is correct, but I do not know.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Buggy713 View Post
                              [/B]

                              We can't be 100% sure that psi isn't material... but materialists can't use this paper to prove it.........
                              I think you can come to a conclusion where you are 100% sure.. if you have enough evidence to discredit materialism as an explanation.

                              An example being the day I "telepathically" sent a message to a friend I was very connected with... who also happened to also be my first Psychic teacher. I sent her a very clear message during a meditation I was doing at home about her need to contact me... and that she had to check her computer because there was a very important message from me.

                              Now without a word of a lie within 10 minutes she contacted me to say that she was in her car leaving her driveway when she very clearly heard in her head that she had to get on her computer to check a very important message... got on and saw I had sent her a message so decided to call me.

                              Now this was a person I had spoken to on the phone maybe 4 times in total ever... and rarely would speak via facebook. She had no idea that I was trying to do any sort of telepathy experiment with her... and we had never even talked about it.

                              In fact I was so amazed (more like stunned) when she actually called me to tell me almost word for word what I had telepathically sent to her... that I could barely speak.

                              Now Materialism cannot possibly explain PSI in that case. Sure it is a personal experience that is only confirmed by 2 people... and sure I didn't mix soda water and vinegar to get my results.. I am not even sure I could do it on demand... but that doesn't make it any less relevant or real.

                              I amnot one to think every coincidence is a PSI experience but this was well and truly beyond anything that is possible. To me it was the equivalent of having an apport drop in my hand from nowhere... undeniable evidence. This is why I am personally 100% certain in my mind materialism cannot explain PSI.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Frankmat View Post
                                I think you can come to a conclusion where you are 100% sure.. if you have enough evidence to discredit materialism as an explanation.

                                An example being the day I "telepathically" sent a message to a friend I was very connected with... who also happened to also be my first Psychic teacher. I sent her a very clear message during a meditation I was doing at home about her need to contact me... and that she had to check her computer because there was a very important message from me.

                                Now without a word of a lie within 10 minutes she contacted me to say that she was in her car leaving her driveway when she very clearly heard in her head that she had to get on her computer to check a very important message... got on and saw I had sent her a message so decided to call me.

                                Now this was a person I had spoken to on the phone maybe 4 times in total ever... and rarely would speak via facebook. She had no idea that I was trying to do any sort of telepathy experiment with her... and we had never even talked about it.

                                In fact I was so amazed (more like stunned) when she actually called me to tell me almost word for word what I had telepathically sent to her... that I could barely speak.

                                Now Materialism cannot possibly explain PSI in that case. Sure it is a personal experience that is only confirmed by 2 people... and sure I didn't mix soda water and vinegar to get my results.. I am not even sure I could do it on demand... but that doesn't make it any less relevant or real.

                                I amnot one to think every coincidence is a PSI experience but this was well and truly beyond anything that is possible. To me it was the equivalent of having an apport drop in my hand from nowhere... undeniable evidence. This is why I am personally 100% certain in my mind materialism cannot explain PSI.
                                Nice story Frankmat, and I kind of agree with you. My experiences leave me in no doubt that psi phenomena are real also. Nevertheless, a poll someone put up on the board, asking how certain people are that psi is real gave a range of options to select from. The two I was torn between were greater than 99% or 100%. I chose greater than 99%, and afterwards felt bad than I hadn't committed to the 100% option. However, instinctively, I have always believed it is impossible to be 100% about anything. There is always room for surprise.
                                Having said that, being more than 99% certain that psi phenomena are real, and having had them myself, means that there is a vanishingly small possibility that materialism can be a valid paradigm, and I would argue passionately that this is so.

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