JREF Million dollar challenge

[WhiteTiger]

Interesting, the rapidity of JREFers to jump into discussions of the challenge, then equally quickly pull a fade when it turns out there are actually going to be serious questions raised and the dialogue can't be diverted to the tired old prejudicial ad homs concerning applicants.

Kinda makes ya go "Hmmm"



Tiger

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Interesting, the rapidity of JREFers to jump into discussions of the challenge, then equally quickly pull a fade when it turns out there are actually going to be serious questions raised and the dialogue can't be diverted to the tired old prejudicial ad homs concerning applicants.

I've had the conversation so often that I'm bored with it. Granted, the responses to Challenge applicants are sometimes curt and sometimes sarcastic, but if saw the applications that we get, you'd understand why. I suppose that does not excuse it. The descriptions by applicant of their experiences in applying are distorted and sometimes contain lies, at least in the cases I've been involved with.

The prize money exists and applicants are involved in specifying the tests. Randi excuses himself except in special circumstances. Many of the applications are incoherent ravings and the applicants will not allow themselves to be pinned down as to their abilities. When we finally give up, they'll say that Randi backed out because he was afraid they really could form cloud shapes with their minds or control the orbits of the planets.

Potentially life-threatening abilities (e.g., surviving on air for three months) are not considered.

~~ Paul

[WhiteTiger]

Hmmm... "the prize money exists" hardly answers the questions raised. Is the bulk of the prize money payable in cash or bonds? If, as it so far appears to be, it's bonds, then the additional questions of guarantors, assignability, and maturation dates become applicable. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced... care to deal directly with those questions?

So far I haven't seen anything but offhand dismissals of such questions. They are simple english language interrogatives, unabiguous and easily responded to if the questionee is in possession of the knowledge and desires to reply.

I notice also that in addition to no reply to the topic, the thrust still seems to be ad hom anecdotals concerning some applicants. Interesting rubber ruler at work here. I've seen JREF responses when they are similarly responded to after asking pointed questions.

Looks a lot like the old saw about the pot and kettle from here, to be honest.



Tiger

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

Hmmm... "the prize money exists" hardly answers the questions raised. Is the bulk of the prize money payable in cash or bonds? If, as it so far appears to be, it's bonds, then the additional questions of guarantors, assignability, and maturation dates become applicable. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced... care to deal directly with those questions?

As far as I know, the first $10,000 would be paid by Randi via check and the remaining within 10 days via a second check. Note two things. First, the $1 million in negotiable bonds at the investment firm is the surety for the prize, not necessarily what is delivered. Second, the Challenge application is a contract, so the money is owed by the JREF one way or the other.

You know, if someone could do one of these things, the JREF million would be chump change.

~~ Paul

[WhiteTiger]

Thank you. The direct response is honestly appreciated The only real way to put these things to rest is to establish the facts, but that requires that those available for enquiry be both in possession of and and willing to disclose them.

Shame that Randi himself leaves even those in his camp with AFAIK on such simple things. Perhaps that can be somehow remedied.



Tiger

[LeoM]

But it doesn't matter James Randi has said before the paranormal cannot exist plus you need replication to verify a claim.

[Psibeliever]

Who issued the bond? That question has apparently never been answered.

[BannedBySkeptiko]

Originally Posted by Psibeliever

Who issued the bond? That question has apparently never been answered.

You don't know what you are talking about.

http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs_jan08.pdf


-Bryan

[Psibeliever]

The cash equivalent is allegedly $231,000+. But what EXACTLY is it?

As for the investment grade fixed income, who guarantees it? I know Goldman Sachs holds it, but who guarantees payment? If the money instrument is guaranteed by a bankrupt company, then it isn't worth much.

Of course, you seem to want to challenge me, regardless of anything I say, so I'll lay down the rules for you to talk to me. I will decide what is true and what isn't, and all information is to be used freely by me, without any right of appeal by you.

If you can't accept that, then I won't discuss anything with you. What can you do about it?

[BannedBySkeptiko]

Originally Posted by Psibeliever

I'll lay down the rules for you to talk to me. I will decide what is true and what isn't, and all information is to be used freely by me, without any right of appeal by you.

Sounds a lot like Psibeliever's rules for the million-dollar challenge:

Originally Posted by Psibeliever

if he wants me to take the challenge, he must give me the million dollars up front. Even if I get zero hits, I still keep the money, and psi is proven. Psi will only be disproven if I get less than zero hits.

If he doesn't like it, what's he going to do about it?

The psi guys tend to win when they make their own rules and judge their own cases. When skeptics and psi-believers negotiate tests to be fair on both sides, the story is different. They psi side used to bat zero. These days, they run away and make excuses.

Originally Posted by Psibeliever

If you can't accept that, then I won't discuss anything with you. What can you do about it?

You're threatening -- do I understand correctly -- to shut up?


This thread is nonsense. Randi never offered to explain large transactions to people who write on subjects they do not understand.

Want to know if JREF is good for the money, check their financials in the normal, business-like way. If some psychics have no idea how million-dollar deals are done, and will not bother to check into it, well, that's not JREF's fault.

The linked essay/rant is just garbage. Paying a million dollars debt in bonds worth much less -- where did he get that? Offers of payment are commonly stated in dollars. Are people really so clueless as to think that the law has no notion of what constitutes legitimate payment?

The JREF offer is legit. It will close in 2010, so if you have a real psychic demonstration, don't put off applying too long. The real situation is that psychics who actually fool people learned some time ago that their tricks will not work under JREF-quality controls. In recent times, the challenge has degenerated. Randi never intended to make fun of the victims, or add to the torments of the mentally ill.

-Bryan