How important is proof?

[Kim]

Overall there are two types of explorers in the world of paranormal investigation. There is nothing wrong with either POV in my opinion, but either you are one or the other. Category 1.) wants to find proof, to establish beyond a shadow of a doubt that there really are psychic phenomonon. Category 2.) wants to research the most extreme phenomonon out there, no matter what method they have to resort to, and not worry about whether they can explain or prove it. There are pitfalls to both sides to be sure.

The people who want to PROVE something, have many of the same problems as mainstream evangelists like Billy Graham. Billy Graham was a very intelectual theologian. He knew much more than he put forth in 99 percent of his sermons. Yet he constantly repeated the slavation message because it was most important. Occasionally he got a chance to speculate a bit, and teach those who were also advanced in his field, but despite his brilliance, and substantial abilities, he spent most of his time explaining the basics to non-believers, and novices. Like Rev. Graham, those provers, are always stuck with the basics. They repeat the same experiments, and listen to the same dull skeptics explain away their 'proof' over and over. These guys are ghost hunting with a camera, while most phenomonon don't photograph. All they want is a scrap of film they can blow up into an 8x10 glossy of some snarly ghost, so skeptics can insist they doctored it on photoshop.

The most problematic part of this plight, whether evangelist, or psychic investigator, is trying to prove a spiritual reality, with physical means, in a physical world, to people who are so caught up in the concrete physical, they can't even wrap their minds around a simple phenomonon.

The plus to this is credibility, for the movement and for themselves. Even if they don't find their proof, they are scientists. Some people still scoff of course, but they don't get accused of being insane very often. Fruther if they prefer they can keep what they are trying to prove and explain fairly simple, and they dont' have to draw extrapolated conclusions involving contradictions with various religious belief systems. Also by keeping at least one foot in the physical realm, they don't risk the delusions the other types are at risk for.

The other types have largely abandoned the idea of proving anything. It becomes irrelivant what the masses believe. The factors involved in their quests vary, so maybe I should subdivide them. They are either

A.) Obcessed with finding deep spiritual truth for themselves
B.) Seeking to help others, or even save the world with their abilities
C.) Curious, intelectual, spiritual, and bored enough to seek other worlds
D.) All of the above.

These people could care less if they can photograph a ghost, though they would give their eye teeth to see the picture, having no doubt it was real. They would type and categorize it, then find out who the creature was and who he worked for. Would their findings be credible? Not to anyone but themselves and others like them.

These people are the Tent Revivalists of the Psi movement. They heal, they cast out devils, and they tell the wildest most hell fire and brimstone stories you can imagine. They may have seen heaven, hell, and all the 32 plains of astral existance... but they can't prove it. Proving things takes time, and limits their exploration. They realize their stories lack credibility with most people, but those who know, know... right? They delight in finding other explorers to compare notes with. Like the healing preacher Earnest Angely, they are made fun of, but I'll tell you what. I went to one of his meetings once, and I saw hundreds of empty wheelchairs at the end of that. The man may seem crazy, and he might talk funny but his stuff works. Sometimes those crazy explorers of the shadowlands hit on something that works too. Still normal people listening to them, are hard pressed to understand, much less believe...

The plus side, involves a lot of freedom in practice, attitude, and of course the ability to keep a low profile if they choose. There are a lot of opportunities to go fruther... way fruther with extrapolation, and theory, than one could if they had to prove themselves at every turn...

but that leads us to a huge pitfall, and the deepest pit of all; becoming self deluded, confused and appearing to be an idiot even to your peers. There are also physical and emotional side effects to that kind of work, and it is a major commitment of time and sweat, for which you can't really take credit or even acknowledge to most of the people around you. The pitfalls of this approach, are numerous, and involve potential for delusions, and a serious risk to sanity. I mean actual loss of sainity is possible even probable, but being perceived as sane, goes out the window the minute they open their mouths outside their own group. Heck there are times just observing a quiet visionary, in public can make you wonder what is wrong with them, unless you see what they see.

Which am I? I am pretty much Catagory 2. D) which is all of the above crazy tent preaching investigator. Why? I figured out even as a child, that most people don't believe in stuff like this... except late at night, in a dimly lit room listening to the best darned experiences I can remember. Then I can scare the pants off even the most logical skeptics... and for a little while they believe. They sit on the edge of their chairs, and scream if the cat moves.

IF I wanted proof, I'd still be ghost busting my first case. I still wouldn't have uncontestable proof, and I wouldn't know jack about what reallly causes these things, or how to deal with them. People either believe, or they don't want to, and life is too short to explain and argue over the same baby steps over and over, to the willfully ignorant. Sometimes people have good reason to be skeptical... not because it isn't true, but because they couldn't handle knowing. I'd rather deal with being called insane, than argue with someone who needs their doubts. I'd rather risk insanity... (well it's too late to do that anyway, it's gone)... than deny what I see, to myself. I'll deny it to others if necessary.

"In a world of only blind people, what is a man with 20-80 vision called? Delusional!" I'll be the first to admit that my sight and understanding is probably less than equal to 20-80 vision, when it comes to all that is really out there, but I've definately seen a lot of stuff, and comprehended at least a tiny fraction of it.

Which kind of parinormal investigator are you?

[jacob]

Wow, Kim, that a great post. I even think about posting it on the main site to give it more exposure. Do you mind if I do this?

Now, to me personally, I still believe I'm somewhere in middle, leaning towards option 1. I've had some experiences which I believe are somewhat above normal and I've heard some stories in my family from my mother and grandma about their experience, even though they are neither religious people nor did they seek it.

On the other hand I do want to have some kind of a more established proof, both to enhance my belief and for the benefit of others. That's why I did my Psi Experiments, for example.

[Kim]

I would be honored if you would post my article anywhere you like, I would appreciate it very much. Thanks for the kind comments.

I understand completely about wanting proof especially for yourself. If I didn't know for myself that at least some of my experiences have been seen by others, confirmed by history, and various other little 'proofs' that satisfy me, then I would not be happy with my situation at all. I like having confirmation about things I see, but I don't care about establishing iron clad proof. I have gotten enough proof to make me sure at least some of what I have seen is correct. I research to confirm my visions when possible, but I dont' publish my work before I confirm. I wouldn't be comfortable. What if I was wrong? LOL I know that some of the things I see aren't always litterally true.

My vision is unreliable in a way. I might meet someone and get images but I don't know what they mean. It could be their litteral experience, or it could be how they feel. I know once during a forum argument on line, I saw a vision of one of the participants as tied up, blindfolded, and beaten by people he couldn't see. I messaged him to see if he was OK, and since we were friends, I asked him if he had ever been treated that way. He said no, but that is how that argument made him feel exactly. I didn't know what it was it was just and impression, and it looked very real. I assumed it was his physical past, especially since he appeared fourty years younger than his actual age. In other instances I have seen past traumas of others. I have no way of knowing which is which.

I also know that not everything in my theory of explaining what I see, makes sense at the moment, nor am I prepared to explain it. My spiritual position currently, is like standing on a stack of precariously balanced chairs holding on to a kite string. The ground is reality, the kite is what I have seen, and the chairs are the explainations, and interpretations I give the kite. I know the kite is real, and the ground under all of it is solid, but the stuff inbetween is kind of unstable. LOL I've had to change my theories a lot over the years, but I am still holding on.



I admire the courage of anyone who throws their abilities open to tests, such as the experiment you have put up. I doubt I'd get a thing off the card, since most of my visions have to be emotionally charged. I pick up on emotional energy and it would be hard for you to get excited enough over the card for me to get the message. LOL

Most of the stuff I see is more complex, and much harder to check. I wouldn't want to play Sylvia Browne, because sometimes I see things clearly in embarrassing detail, and I don't know if it is litteral physical or just emotion, or if there is some spiritual or astral occurance, or past life experience. Other times I meet someone and don't get a thing. I've known people for years before and never gotten a shred of insight on them. I don't know how people who put themselves up for observation and testing deal with it. For me it would be uncomfortable... for example, who would want to ask someone in front of an audience if they had been raped, or do they just fantasize about it a lot. I see stuff like that all the time, but personally I think it is best not to ask those kinds of questions... still if they were standing in front of me asking what I saw on them... well what could I say?

I once had a vision in an old house, while looking out the window. I was able to verify by research that what I saw was exactly how the property looked in the early 1900's. I can't prove that I saw it, or that I didn't know prior to seeing it how it looked. I wouldn't have wanted to explain the scene in detail in some article, and then try to research whether I was correct or not. Overall I know my visions aren't scientifically provable at all, but I don't like having them questioned. I don't want other people debunking psi, or God, or the paranormal based on my work, which I know has gaps and is incomplete, especially in the area of my own explainations. Honestly I can't keep up. I see a whole lot more than I understand, and I can't stop seeing long enough to make sense of one thing before another crops up. For me seeing it takes minutes, and explaining it takes years of research, and my conclusions so far are incomplete. I have so many little snips of seemingly unrelated vision it is just confusing to try to understand it all. Explaining it would be harder. I like to try to explain it to non skeptics but I'm not ready to throw this stuff out to the wolves if you know what I mean.

At the same time though I guess we are all mixed, in our feelings about proof and how much to reveal to others. I'd love to be Sylvia in a way, but in another I'd be terrified. I'd love to publish, but in another way I'd just die if someone tore my work apart and proved I was delusional. I'm often wrong, due to the fact I misinterpret what I see. I once mistook a police officer for an army officer in a past life vision given by one of my channels. As a result I thought he was in the army, when he was actually just arrested. I researched and was heartsick when I found out I was completely mistaken on his being in the army, but then when I found out he was arrested I understood my mistake... cop, drill sargent... it equals the same to my emotional interpretation and the feeling I got... the uniform didn't vary much. The cop was dressed in tan, with an emblem on his shoulder... which was too foggy to see. I can understand my mistake, and I can understand why my channel didn't clarify. I mean that was embarrassing no doubt, so he would have let me think what I wanted to, but would a skeptic understand my mistake? I doubt it.

Kim

[anonymous]

If you want proof of certain paranormal phenomena all you have to do is read the existing literature.

(See http://www.geocities.com/chs4o8pt?00007 where there are links and references on the home page, the recommended reading page the page on healing and other locations on that site.

More proof will not convince materialists who will not consider evidence that conflicts with their religion of materialism.

When we can produce technology or techniques that use paranormal forces or laws to do things easily, often, and well, which cannot be done today, that will get the attention of materialists and government research funding agences.

This is why is it now time to stop repeating experiments asking "does it work" that have been sucessful for years and years and start focusing on trying to understand "how it works" so that we can start applying engineering techniques and make these laws of nature easier to use by the average person.

http://www.geocities.com/chs4o8pt/na...hip.html?00007


A related point: People have to understand that some science cannot be done in a laboratory. Many aspects of field biology, ecology, geology, anthropology, astronomy are studied by observing phenomena that occurs oustide a laboratory. People also have to understand what a laboratory is. A laboratory doesn't have to have benches, stools, sinks, and glassware cabinets. A livingroom in an ordinary home with curtains that block all light from the windows and used to hold seances can also be a laboratory if phenomena is examined there in an unbiased, empirical, and openminded way. Also understand scientists do not hold a monopoly on science. Where did the first scientists come from? Science is when you try to understand a phenomena by making observations and testing hypotheses.

[Kim]

Thank you so much for the links Anonymous!!! This site looks interesting. Is it yours? I can't wait to read the on line book 30 years among the dead. I am very curious about it, and the title sounds like the author and I might have a lot in common.

More proof will not convince materialists who will not consider evidence that conflicts with their religion of materialism.

I totally agree that some people will never consider the possibility of psi phenomonon. Materialists are materialists for a reason. Everyone has a belief system, even if it is a negative belief system like materalism, atheism, or extreme skepticism, it still gives comfort to those who believe it. In a sense their faith in the world to be stable and predictable, and themselves to be able to determine their own fate is key to their sense of security.

While some of us are comforted by ideas like afterlife, or something greater than our concrete world, or some force directing our lives, others are frightened by those kinds of concepts. They want to feel in control of their lives and live in a world they understand as predictable. For them accepting belief in anything, would be the equivilent of a devout Christian becoming convinced there is no God. It would be tremendously shattering in some cases. In the long run they might be better off, but initially the shock would be catestrophic.

Winning over the skeptics may well be impossible, and there will always be non believers, unless you do convince them it is somehow predictable, safe, and completely controlable. They don't want to know that their world is subtly influenced by energies, spirits, aeons, angels and such, because that takes away from their concept that everything is predictable.

When we can produce technology or techniques that use paranormal forces or laws to do things easily, often, and well, which cannot be done today, that will get the attention of materialists and government research funding agences.

That interests me a lot, but if I had such technology, I don't think I'd be ready to sign it over to the government. Just look how those scientists who discovered Neuclear Fision felt after WWII. They felt responsible for the deaths, and deformities caused by their work. I think that if we developed such power, we'd have to be careful not only to use our powers for good, but to make sure we only shared them with people who would also use them for good. To me that almost certainly means we shouldn't reveal potentially destructive forces to any government. They tend to turn everything into a weapon anyway. Give them a potential fuel source, and they will turn it into a death machine. Governments have enough power without magic. LOL

This is why is it now time to stop repeating experiments asking "does it work" that have been sucessful for years and years and start focusing on trying to understand "how it works" so that we can start applying engineering techniques and make these laws of nature easier to use by the average person.

That is a wonderful idea, and I also think that we need to push our own abilities so that the outcome is more predictable, and useful. I know a little about how it works, but still what you are proposing is like trying to contain a 10,000,000 acre forest fire in an ashtray on your coffee table. That is true wheter you mean understanding it, studying it under controled conditions or being able to use it. I am not saying it isn't possible, and really that is what we are all trying to do, but it is very complex. I'd like to work on a project like that though, and I have students who would. We try all the time, but no one's brain is big enough to wrap around all this stuff, at least not so far. We are still trying though. While some are standing off from the flames trying to catch a spark, we are running through the fire, with our watergun in one hand and lighter fluid in the other. I'd like to see more direction and control, but I fear this isn't a science... by the current definition of science.

Carl Jung once complained that Science was by definition flawed, because it only considered material evidence, material measurment, and material outcome as proof. He argued that the most important things in life, such as Love, Joy and Peace could not be directly observed, weighed and measured like physical elements. I think the man had a point. He wanted to re-define scientific procedure completely. I think that perhaps in viewing paranormal phenomonon we do have to look at non material, non measurable factors A LOT. Working within the boundries of science is limiting, but perhaps workable even for bigger projects. Personally i just want to know things, and let others read the results and make up their own minds.

[anonymous]

A good example of someone using paranormal phenomena in a practical way can be found here:

Induced After-Death Communication

Induced ADC's (IADC) for Grief Therapy


Induced after death communication is a therapy developed by a vertran's administration psychologist that helps veterans with post traumatic stress syndrome. The therapy allows the patient to communicate with the spirits of those who's death was involved in the traumatic experience of the patient.


What is important about this therapy is that any therapist can be easily trained to do it with the same high level of efficiency as any other.

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by Kim

We try all the time, but no one's brain is big enough to wrap around all this stuff, at least not so far.

I think there is an important parallel with the history of science. At some point in the development of western civilization a few people decided that ancient manuscripts, and current superstitions might not be 100% accurate and that if possible facts should be tested. When those first few scientists started testing things they found that they could learn even more about nature by inventing hypotheses and testing them. This was one of the most important events in the intellectual development of mankind. None of those first few scientists could possible understand all of modern science. No single person today can understand all of modern science. Nonetheless modern science exists.

Paranormal science is in a similar stage of development today as mainstream scieces was in those long ago times. However we have been stuck in the earliest stage for too long. We need to start testing hypotheses to learn more about how it works. No single person is going to explain everything, but with many people working on the small piece that interests them and sharing their discoveries we will accumulate a body of knolwedge that can be used to develop methods and technology that will make paranormal phenomena an everyday occurance experienced by everyone.

[Kim]

Hi Anonymous,

I really apprecate all the links you are sending. I was very impressed with the After Death Communication threapy. I think it is a wonderful idea, and apparently the EMDR method is working exceptionally well in putting these people into a state where they can experience really seeing. I have read a little about EMDR before, but now I want to really understand how it works, because this may be our key to making phenomonon accessable to everyone. I have actually done things like this for myself and for others, but usually unless the person I am helping is sighted, I have to translate... channel or whatever, and that couldn't possibly be as good as really seeing it for themselves.

I know that these people are experiencing the real thing, and it is a very similar process which I use, but personally I don't need EMDR to put me into this state. I am very interested in the idea that novice people can be placed in a state where they can experience things like that. I always tell people to meditate, but maybe this EMDR would work better and save them some trouble. I wonder if it is something anyone could learn to do? I am apparently naturally in a similar state, so I really don't have to work at achieving altered states of consciousness. It seems to just happen. LOL If this procedure works for most people then it would definately make a lot of things accessable to the general public.

No single person is going to explain everything, but with many people working on the small piece that interests them and sharing their discoveries we will accumulate a body of knolwedge that can be used to develop methods and technology that will make paranormal phenomena an everyday occurance experienced by everyone.

I agree that investigators need to broaden their research, to more complex work. I am not a scientist myself, either by trade or by nature. I really don't have the patience for the kind of narrow painstaking processes scientists go through, but I have a good bit of experience, and a lot of theories. I can't PROVE anything, unless I worked with someone who could document it, or just use my ideas and understandings as a spring board for their research.

I could tell a lot about how things work, but like I said, it's just a theory based on my on visions and experiences, and the visions and experiences of others. In addition I read a lot of really old books, about various spiritual practices, and religions. I've learned a good bit to support my experiences, and find that I have an understanding of how it all works... I still have a few loose ends, and some details I am not positive of, but I do have a sort of overview of most types of phenomonon, especially as it relates to the psychic connection between different people, both living and dead and their abilities to communicate, but I have no way to prove anything.

If I could give one hint, I'd take two jars, of water. I'd drop a rock in one, and let it sink. I'd say - The body is solid, and it stays in one physical place. It doesn't come apart so that one can be in more than one place at a time. This state which seems natural in this world is truely unnatural to other planes of existance. The physical life of the body on earth is unique in that way. NOTHING else works that way, or at least very few things. Then I'd spray a few drops of different colored ink in another bottle. Then i'd say, The spirit is not matter. It can come and go as it wills, it can divide many times, and it is already divided, so that one part is here, and another part is there. It is in many, many places at once, with greater or lesser awarenness. Then I'd pour both jars in the ocean. I'd ask them where they thought the ink would be tomorrow. Then I'd say Lack of awareness doesn't significantly limit that activity or the ability of the spirit and soul to act independently of the body, or the consciousness of the brain. The concept of physical matter confuses those who want to study spiritual things. They assume that something is either here or there, when spirit is anywhere and everywhere. The person inside the body may not be one person at all, but many, or bits of one person attached to another. One person can go to another, instantly over 1000s of miles, and stay with them for an unlimited time period, while maintaing their own body also. When one dies, a certain part goes to the afterlife, another part is there perpetually anyway, and still other parts which have attached to other people remain, forever in the hearts of their loved ones. Seperation of distance means nothing to these parts, and they are all still one, though not all parts always know what each other are doing. Some bonds end shortly after death, but others last for many many lifetimes. Spirits are continually blending and seperating, popping to the location of loved ones, or achieving awareness of the heavenly higher self. They mix occasionally with a passer by, or gravitate towards a kindred spirit, either knowingly or unknowingly.

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by Kim

I could tell a lot about how things work, but like I said, it's just a theory based on my on visions and experiences, and the visions and experiences of others....
The spirit is not matter. It can come and go as it wills, it can divide many times, and it is already divided, so that one part is here, and another part is there. It is in many, many places at once, with greater or lesser awarenness.

I agree...

Silver Birch had this to say:
http://www.angelfire.com/ok/SilverBirch/lights.html

"There are also what I call facets of the one diamond. This is the over-soul, the greater individuality, and the facets are aspects of it which incarnate into your world for experiences that will add lustre to the diamond when they return to it.
...
Also there are people who, although separate persons, are aspects of the one individuality. For instance, my medium, his wife and myself are parts of one individual. So you can have facets of the one guide. You can call these extensions if you like, but it comes to the same thing. Only an infinitesimal part of the whole individuality can be manifested in physical form on earth."

One of the advantages we have in the field of paranormal studies is that we have access to information from spirits. This is one aspect that should allow paranormal investigations to proceed rapidly once investigators begin to take full advantage of it.

[Kim]

Thanks for all the cool links. I think I might know Silver Birch, but I am not sure it is the same person... if not certainly another kindred spirit. I'll try to figure that out later.

Anyway I agree that talking to spirits, traveling to astral places etc, is a great help in understanding what is going on. On the down side, some people tend to think we are making all that up as we go along. It is hard to sound credible when you are quoting a channel for some reason. Personally I use my visionary, and channel information, and then research it till I find evidence of it in various ancient texts, and even modern books by other people. Failing that I just look for other psychics who have seen the same thing.

In general for me, I can't seperate psi from spiritual, not for my own practice anyway. I know some people that say they are pure psi, but to me it is all part of the same thing, and that makes it a very big subject. To me the physical earth is like only a speck comparted to what is out there, and it is just overwhelming to try to explain that. Then there is the confusion between outer space and inner space. Mapping is next to impossible because of the way links work. i have made a few maps, but they are fragments of a more vast area than I can concieve of... and my understanding of them is infantile at best.

I would really like to try to piece things toghether much better than I have so far. I have so many notes, and bits and pieces of explainations, but overall the whole thing is just becoming too big. I have thousands of pages, of experiences, and I have only been recording them for maybe five or six years. I dunno... it's all too much. I love comparing notes with people though.