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| Scientific debates Discussions on the scientific side of psi research, including, publications, news, books, experiments, podcasts etc. Skeptics and supporters. |
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| OBSERVATION OF A PSYCHOKINETIC EFFECT UNDER HIGHLY CONTROLLED CONDITIONS Author: Helmut Schmidt Observation of a PK effect under highly controlled conditions In another thread on this forum, I have been asking for commenters here to point me towards some of the good experimental studies in parapsychology. This study is one that was suggested, so I thought I would post my initial review of the study here. Thanks to Larry Boy for pointing me to this paper. General comments: It looks like this experiment is modeled after the delayed-choice double-slit experiments in quantum physics. The basic idea of those being that the past appears to be effected by choices made in the present (or the present is effected by choices mad in the future). I won't try to summarize the whole thing, as any interested parties can read the original at the link given above. Problems with the experiment: No negative controls. I will continue, and describe some other problems, but this single problems renders the experiment inconclusive. A negative control is critical in order to determine that a particular variable (in this case, the intention of the subjects) is responsible for the observed results, and not some other variable. This is central to experimental science. This is the biggest oversight I see in experimental designs (in all areas, not restricted to psi). Whenever you are examining an experiment, always ask yourself, "where is the negative control?". If you can't find it, you cannot trust the results. On to other issues. It is not clear to me that the statistical methods being used are the best in this circumstance. Usually, when there is a binary outcome and you are looking for deviations from chance, the binomial distribution is the method of choice. This basically lets you calculate the chances of getting a particular number of heads when flipping a (fair) coin some number of times. This seems to be the natural way to analyze the data from this experiment, but this is not what Schmidt chose. (He may have good reasons, and maybe someone can suggest why his method makes more sense). Instead, he uses a z-score. It is not clear how he calculates the standard deviation, and it is not clear to me that this method is statistically valid in this case. Five experiments are performed, and the results are not significant, by the authors criteria. Schmidt states, "All experiments gave score deviations from chance in the desired direction, but the z values for most experiments were too low to provide independent statistical significance. " That is, every experiment failed to show an effect distinguishable from chance. Then the z scores from the five experiments are combined. I hope someone familiar with this can help me out here, because I don not understand the justification for the formula used to combine the scores. I could see using a mean of the z scores as possibly making sense, but that is not what he does. He uses the formula: z = (z1 + z2 + ... + zn) / sqrt(n) The sum of the z-scores is divided by the square root of the n. To get the mean, of course, you would divide by n. This seems to have the effect of inflating the resulting 'combined z score'. The final z score of 3.67 is presented. The mean of the five z scores is 1.64 (not significant). I'm not sure that it is legitimate to manipulate z-scores like this, and I certainly don't understand why the square root of n is used instead of n. I am not a statistician, so perhaps someone can set me straight on this. Summary data are presented. It would be good to see the data that underly Table 2. Table 2 presents the calculated z scores for each experiments. I would like to see that 'raw' data from each run. That is, how many 1s and how many 0s for the run, plus the assignment of the independent observer for the run. With these data, anyone (e.g. myself) could re-analyse using other statistical methods. In conclusion, what I am seeing from this study is an experiment without any negative controls that failed to demonstrate a significant deviation from chance results. I readily acknowledge that I read the paper quite quickly and have not studied it in depth, so I may be overlooking key elements. If so, I hope someone here can point this out to me so that I will better understand the study. I am a Hedge |
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| Very good initiative, Im a Hedge. ![]() What do you think about the following? "If the subject's effort was successful, the independent observer can confirm this first-hand by a tendency of the scores to point in the directions (positive or negative) that he had randomly specified. Because the independent observer had randomly assigned the directions, he or she can be certain that no such systematic tendency should occur (in the absence of the claimed anomaly)." In theory, a random sequence should produce an approximately equal amount of "green" and "red" hits, creating a base line that fluctuates around chance: a) -------------------------------------- The results, however, seemed to follow the intended direction (positive or negative) decided at random by the experimenters, thus giving us something like this: Positive b) +____________________________________-------------------- 0------------------------------------------------------------- - Negative c) + 0_________________________________________________________ -------------------------------------------------_______________ Ideally, a control situation where no one is trying to interfere psychically with the random number generator should have been included. However, such experiments have been conducted quite a number of times before by parapsychologists, and the results in the actual test sessions have proven better than in the control sessions, which as far as I'm aware have only produced random results. One could thus assume that Schmidt trusted his random number generators to produce random results this time also. Which, by the way, is what we should expect by such a machine if it isn't malfunctioning. And even if it is malfunctioning, it shouldn't be able to produce results consistent with the randomly decided intended directions of the individual trials. In other words, I'm not convinced the control issue really is an issue in this experiment. However, I would be glad to hear your reasons for being concerned about this if you disagree. I can't comment on the statistical issues. Last edited by Larry Boy; 09-11-2008 at 03:55 PM.. |
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In this experiment, the independent observers could be given additional sealed printouts that they would treat exactly the same as the others. In fact, they would not know which ones are the controls. The only difference between these printouts and the experimental printouts would be that no subject would attempt to alter the results of the control printouts. The controls would be scored alongside the others, and again the person doing the scoring would not know which are the controls. Without including a control along these lines it is not possible to know if there was any effect due to the variable of interest. I hope that makes some sense, and helps explain why negative controls must always be included for experimental results to be meaningful. I am a Hedge |
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| I see your point, and I agree that such a control should have been included. However, I'm not sure I would go as far as to say that the results aren't meaningful. I simply don't see how any unknown factor of the kind you mentioned ("Time, temperature, humidity, solar flares, wind speed, bird migrations, volcano eruptions, and so on...") could explain statistically significant results in the intended directions randomly decided upon in advance. Such factors may perhaps be able to bias the outcome in one way or another in an individual trial, but for these factors to correspond over and over again - that is, to a statistically significant degree - to the intended directions, you would have to invoke some kind of consciousness to these natural forces! (Or attribute the results to chance, which of course you can do anyway, whatever controls you put in place.) |
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| I intentionally used a list of things that I can't imagine impacting this particular experiment. My point is that confounding variables often turn out to be things nobody would have imagined. That's the beauty of a good negative control. You don't have to know what your controlling for. You effectively control for almost everything, no matter what it is. Also, keep in mind that this particular study doesn't seem to have shown an actual effect. A negative control helps you narrow down the cause of an observed effect. In analyzing these results, the lack of a negative control is not very important, because there is no effect that needs to be explained. That is, unless I have really misunderstood the analysis (which is always a good possibility). The flaw with the experimental design is that the lack of a negative control would prevent you from drawing any meaningful conclusions even if there had been a strong observed effect. I am a Hedge |
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He's making a mistake in that each of his "units" is just one coin toss as far as the observers can verify, so computing a Z for each and combining them is invalid. His argument that this shouldn't matter much is, like many hand-waves, wrong in principle though almost right in how the experiments turned out. Quote:
Why is the Stouffer z valid, and one should not just average the z-scores? Again GIYF, but I'll try to motivate the issues. First, when using Stouffer's z statistic, we represent mostly-miss outcomes with negative z-scores. No matter how many values we combine, the expected sum under the null hypothesis is zero. Why not just average the z-scores? Let's look at an example: Suppose our experiment is to flip a fair coin 3 times while trying to psychically cause 'heads'. We repeat our three-flip experiment 1000 times, and each time we get 2 'heads' and one 'tails'. Each individual experiment is insignificant, and if we averaged all those identical scores we'd get that same insignificant number. Hitting an even-odds shot twice in 3 trials is insignificant, but the chance of hitting it 666 times in a thousand independent trials is less than one in 1000000000000000000000000. Stouffer's Z is mathematically defensible in meta-analysis. The real problem with it is that parapsychologist pretend that they are just following normal scientific methods, when in fact real scientific disciplines know such meta-analysis to be notoriously unreliable. Other sciences offer repeatable demonstrations; parapsychology offers excuses and special pleading. -Bryan |
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![]() Can't comment on the statistics, but it seems bold to make a claim like this at the same time as you admit that you do not fully understand the methods being used. Maybe you're right, though. I don't know. |
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| I hope you will be able to continue to contribute to this discussion, your comments are much appreciated. I must admit though that I have no idea what you're talking about, as my knowledge about statistics is close to zero. That only goes to show, however, that without a firm grasp of scientific methods it's difficult to evaluate the status of psi research. |
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Someone with a better understanding of statistics may be able to explain why my expectation is flawed. I am a Hedge |
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-Bryan |
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