Sleep Paralysis

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Psibeliever

I have one assumption
1) Aliens came here and abducted us while we're waking or asleep.

Skeptics have several
1) People have cuts and scoop marks because they were sleepwalking and dreaming about abductions.
2) People who are say they were abducted in their sleep were undergoing sleep paralysis.
3) People who say they were abducted while awake were either engaging in false memory or were lying.

You're seriously saying that no alien abducation claim is ever wrong?
Noone is ever mistaken? (except skeptics, of course...)

Originally Posted by Psibeliever

You can only go once, that's it. In litigation, we are allowed to go once, as a general rule, for this very reason - if lawyers were allowed to keep going on and on, they will never stop (we have a bad reputation as it is). The rule is this - I speak, you speak, I criticize your ideas, and you criticize mine. On that second round of criticism, I cannot bring up new ideas, and you cannot bring up new ones.

Lawyers, to give us credit, know how to argue, because we do this for a living. The rules have been stressed out in practice again and again, over the centuries, at least in the Anglo-American courts, and the rules are there for a reason.

You get ONE round. If you go beyond that, I'll go beyond that, and, as I said, everything becomes a jumble.

Do you think that reality operates like a US court? Do you think that rhetorics and technicalities can influence the nature of reality?

[Psibeliever]

You're seriously saying that no alien abducation claim is ever wrong?
Noone is ever mistaken? (except skeptics, of course...)

That's not what I said; I said that it's the simpler explanation.

Do you think that reality operates like a US court? Do you think that rhetorics and technicalities can influence the nature of reality?

That's a good question, Miguel. Of course technicalities don't influence the nature of reality. But we debate the facts as we see them, and, when we debate, we use the art and science of rhetoric, which must follow certain rules, or the debate will become meaningless.

Now, as to whether we can use legal procedure as rhetoric, well, that's a topic beyond the scope of this thread.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Psibeliever

I don't have to, because I don't understand their technology. If you keep shifting the goalpost, then Occam's razor will never be used - if you are going to deal with the implications, then, as I said, I can twist ten explanations to be simpler than one. You can't go beyond the first round to say that, because the implications are complex, then the larger number of explanations are complex.

Huh?

According to Wikipaedia, Occam's razor says that we should make the fewest number of assumptions.[/url]

I have one assumption
1) Aliens came here and abducted us while we're waking or asleep.

Come on Psibeliever, this is ridiculous. You have many more assumptions, such as the assumption that aliens can get here in the first place. Occam is for use with theories that actually make an effort to explain some phenomenon.

You can go beyond my one explanation and assumption to say that there are far more assumptions, but then I will go beyond your three assumptions to get three times as many more. So, if you want to play that game, no one can EVER use Occam's razor.

You're right, a couple of twits chit-chatting about whether aliens abduct people in their sleep don't get to use Occam.

You can only go once, that's it. In litigation, we are allowed to go once, as a general rule, for this very reason - if lawyers were allowed to keep going on and on, they will never stop (we have a bad reputation as it is). The rule is this - I speak, you speak, I criticize your ideas, and you criticize mine. On that second round of criticism, I cannot bring up new ideas, and you cannot bring up new ones.

Is this some law about discussions on Internet forums that I don't know about? Are you proposing that science be conducted by each "side" making a single proposal and then the Occam Police making a decision? What the hell are you on about? And please, please, stop comparing science to a court of law.

You get ONE round. If you go beyond that, I'll go beyond that, and, as I said, everything becomes a jumble.

Why does it become a jumble? Why doesn't it become a more serious effort to explain some phenomenon?

He was taken in by something - even if it's not aliens, it's something.

Originally Posted by Wiki

Jerome Clark wrote that just after Walton moved away from the disc, the others insist they saw a beam of blue-green light emanate from the disc and “strike Travis”. Clark went on to write that Travis "rose a foot into the air, his arms and legs outstretched, and shot back stiffly some 10 feet (3.0 m), all the while caught in the glow of the light. His right shoulder hit the earth, and his body sprawled limply over the ground.” (Clark, 628-629)

Are we reading the same English here? It says he rose up and then moved back 10 feet, landing on the ground. Where's the abduction?

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Psibeliever

That's not what I said; I said that it's the simpler explanation.

Yeah, and previously you said:

Occam's razor says the simplest explanation is the best, whether you agree with it or not.

So now it's the simplest and the best.

That's a good question, Miguel. Of course technicalities don't influence the nature of reality. But we debate the facts as we see them, and, when we debate, we use the art and science of rhetoric, which must follow certain rules, or the debate will become meaningless.

It's not a damn formal debate! If you want to have a formal debate with someone, do it somewhere else. And if you want to pretend that the results of the debate have anything to do with reality, please count me way, way out. The way to decide whether people are being abducted by aliens is to use science, not a stupid debate.

And for crying out loud, Occam is a rule of thumb, not some law you can apply to the opening statements of two sides of a debate.

~~ Paul

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Psibeliever

That's not what I said; I said that it's the simpler explanation.

You said:
I have one assumption
Are you changing your story now?

[hoggworks]

Originally Posted by Miguel

You said:
I have one assumption
Are you changing your story now?

He does that, but he also claims he never changes it, as he's changing it. It's fun!

[Pollux]

Ok, this turned out to a ET-abduction debate.
Well I dont mind that.
But I was interested in the hard cold fact research in Sleep Paralysis and in the scientific fact of hallucinations.

What are the scientific facts about that.
Many people sway those terms around while "explaining" many experinces, not just from single, certified mentally diagnosed persons, but just when a "comfortable rational explanation" doesnt fit in a one-minute-debunking when a group of totally rational people experince it.

Can one see/read the original scintefic research on Sleep Paralysis anywhere, and see what conclusions they made, and why the think, in a brain-measuring way this is just a "internal-sensation".

And if so...the explanation of the "Hag"..the Mare...how can this in any kind of evoulotional way, (since its not cultural be genetically implemented in our brains?) cross every cultural boundaries?
And for what cause?
Millions, and millions of people have experinced the SAME figure/female through centuries.
Its the same with the NDE, same experinces that transend centuries.
That lame Raymond Moody cop-out bollox-book explanation by skeptics fall flat on the ground.

I think Randi (the smurf) said that, since Raymond wrote his book everyone said they saw a tunnel when they died..before they didnt...case closed for him....supreme-intellectual conlusion from the cardshuffler there.

To bad thats not true though.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Pollux

Millions, and millions of people have experinced the SAME figure/female through centuries.

Source?
Also: What does she look like?

[Pollux]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Source?

• In African culture, isolated sleep paralysis is commonly referred to as "the witch riding your back".[20][21]
• In Cambodian, Laotian, and Thai culture, sleep paralysis is called pee umm and khmout sukkhot. It is described as an event in which the person is sleeping and dreams that one or more ghostly figures are nearby or even holding him or her down. The sufferer usually thinks that he or she is awake but unable to move or make any noises. This is not to be confused with pee khao and khmout jool, ghost possession.
• In Iceland folk culture sleep paralysis is generally called having a "Mara". A goblin or a succubus (since it is generally female) believed to cause nightmares (the origin of the word 'Nightmare' itself is derived from her name). Other European cultures share variants of the same folklore, calling her under different names; Proto-Germanic: marōn; Old English: mære; German: Mahr; Dutch: nachtmerrie; Icelandic, Old Norse, Faroese, and Swedish: mara; Danish: mare; Norwegian: mare; Old Irish: morrigain; Bulgarian, Serbian, Polish: mora; French: cauchemar; Romanian: moroi; Czech: můra. The origin of the belief itself is much older and goes back to the reconstructed Proto Indo-European root mora-, an incubus, from the root mer- "to rub away" or "to harm".
• In Malta, folk culture attributes a sleep paralysis incident to an attack by the "Haddiela" who is the wife of the "Hares", the entity in Maltese folk culture which haunts the individual in similar ways as to those of a poltergeist. As believed in folk culture, to rid oneself of the Haddiela, one must place a piece of silverware or a knife under the pillow prior to sleep.
• Ogun Oru is a traditional explanation for nocturnal disturbances among the Yoruba of Southwest Nigeria; ogun oru (nocturnal warfare) involves an acute night-time disturbance that is culturally attributed to demonic infiltration of the body and psyche during dreaming. Ogun oru is characterized by its occurrence, a female preponderance, the perception of an underlying feud between the sufferer's earthly spouse and a 'spiritual' spouse, and the event of bewitchment through eating while dreaming. The condition is believed to be treatable through Christian prayers or elaborate traditional rituals designed to exorcise the imbibed demonic elements.[26]
• In Greece and Cyprus, it is believed that sleep paralysis occurs when a ghost-like creature or Demon named Mora, Vrahnas or Varypnas (Greek: Μόρα, Βραχνάς, Βαρυπνάς) tries to steal the victim's speech or sits on the victim's chest causing asphyxiation.
• In Newfoundland and Labrador, it is known as the 'Old Hag'.[32] In island folklore, the Hag can be summoned to attack a third party, like a curse. In his 1982 book, The Terror that Comes in the Night, David J. Hufford writes that in local culture the way to call the Hag is to recite the Lord's Prayer backwards. It is also common for believers to claim that those who are not wakened from this paralysis will die.
•
• In Hungarian folk culture sleep paralysis is called "lidércnyomás" ("lidérc pressing") and can be attributed to a number of supernatural entities like "lidérc" (wraith), "boszorkány" (witch), "tündér" (fairy) or "ördögszerető" (demon lover).[24] The word "boszorkány" itself stems from the Turkish root "bas-", meaning "to press".[25]
•
• In Vietnamese culture, sleep paralysis is referred to as "ma đè", meaning "held down by a ghost" or "bóng đè", meaning "held down by a shadow". Many people in this culture believe that a ghost has entered one's body, causing the paralyzed state.
• In Chinese culture, sleep paralysis is widely known as "鬼壓身/鬼压身" (pinyin: guǐ yā shēn) or "鬼壓床/鬼压床" (pinyin: guǐ yā chuáng), which literally translate into "ghost pressing on body" or "ghost pressing on bed." A more modern term is "夢魘/梦魇" (pinyin: mèng yǎn); notice that the character "魘/魇" (pinyin: yǎn) is composed of "厭/厌" (pinyin: yàn), "to detest", and "鬼" (pinyin: guǐ), "ghost, demon".
• In Japanese culture, sleep paralysis is referred to as kanashibari (金縛り, literally "bound or fastened in metal," from kane "metal" and shibaru" to bind, to tie, to fasten"). This term is occasionally used by English speaking authors to refer to the phenomenon both in academic papers and in pop psych literature.[22]
• Kurdish people call this phenomenon a "mottaka", they believe that some one, in a form of a ghost or perhaps an evil spirit, turns up on top the of the person in the middle of the night and suffocates him/her. Apparently this happens usually when some one has done something bad.
• In New Guinea, people refer to this phenomenon as "Suk Ninmyo", believed to originate from sacred trees that use human essence to sustain its life. The trees are said to feed on human essence during night as to not disturb the human's daily life, but sometimes people wake unnaturally during the feeding, resulting in the paralysis.
• In Turkish culture, sleep paralysis is often referred to as "karabasan" ("The dark presser/assailer"). It is believed to be a creature which attacks people in their sleep, pressing on their chest and stealing their breath.
• In Mexico, it's believed that sleep paralysis is in fact the spirit of a dead person getting on the person and impeding movement, calling this "se me subió el muerto" (the dead person got on me).
• In many parts of the Southern United States, the phenomenon is known as a "hag", and the event is said to often be a sign of an approaching tragedy or accident.
• In Zimbabwean Shona culture the word Madzikirira is used to refer something really pressing one down. This mostly refers to the spiritual world in which some spirit—especially an evil one—tries to use its victim for some evil purpose. The people believe that witches can only be people of close relations to be effective, and hence a witches often try to use one's spirit to bewitch one's relatives.
• In Ethiopian culture the word Dukak is used. Dukak is believed to be some form of evil spirit that possesses people during their sleep. This experience is also believed to be related to use of Khat. Most Khat users experience sleep paralysis when quitting after a long time of use.
• Several studies have shown that African-Americans may be predisposed to isolated sleep paralysis also known as "the witch is riding you" or "the haint is riding you".[27] In addition, other studies have shown that African-Americans who have frequent episodes of isolated sleep paralysis, i.e., reporting having one or more sleep paralysis episodes per month coined as "sleep paralysis disorder," were predisposed to having panic attacks.[28] This finding has been replicated by other independent researchers[29][30]
• In the Muslim culture of South Asia (Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian Muslims), sleep paralysis is considered an encounter with evil jinns and demons. It is also assumed that it is caused by the black magic performed by enemies and jealous persons. Curses could also result in a ghoul haunting a person. Some homes and locations are also alleged to be haunted by these satanic beings.
• In Tamil and Sri Lankan Culture, this particular phenomenon is referred to as 'Amuku Be" or 'Amuku Pei' meaning "the ghost that forces one down".
• In Malay of Malay Peninsula, sleep paralysis is known as 'kena tindih' (or 'ketindihan' in Indonesia), which means "being pressed".[31] Incidents are commonly considered to be the work of a malign agency; occurring in what are explained as blind spots in the field of vision, they are reported as demonic figures.
• In Persian culture it is known as 'bakhtak' (Persian: بختک) which is a ghost-like creature who does this.
•
• In Hmong culture, sleep paralysis describes an experience called "dab tsog" or "crushing demon." Often the sufferer claims to be able to see a tiny figure, no larger than a child, sitting on his or her chest. What is alarming is that a vast number of American Hmong have died in their sleep, prompting the Centers for Disease Control to create the term "Sudden Unexpected Nocturnal Death Syndrome" (see Sudden unexplained death syndrome) or "SUNDS" for short; this is now theorized to be a form of Brugada syndrome.
•
• In Philippine culture, "bangungut", or sudden unexplained death syndrome, has traditionally been attributed to nightmares.[23] People who have claimed to survive such nightmares have reported experiencing the symptoms of sleep paralysis.[citation needed]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Also: What does she look like?

Ooh gee, I guess they forgot to bring a Polaroid into the their predicament

[hoggworks]

Originally Posted by Pollux

Ooh gee, I guess they forgot to bring a Polaroid into the their predicament

If you don't know what she looks like, how do you know these are all the same person?

And what would you make of the idea that people are reporting alien visits en masse, rather than various forms of the night hag?