89. “God Helmet” Inventor, Dr. Michael Persinger Discovers Telepathic Link in Lab Exp

[larry4444]

Originally Posted by Miguel

I know there are a lot of people who are both scientifically educated and of religious faith. Belief in an after-life is certainly a religious belief.
The point I was making is that unless one already believes in an after-life, ie something that takes place after the body has ceased functioning, there is no reason to assert that the NDE takes place during a period of little or no brain activity.

unless the occurances one observed during the nde can be corroborated and shown to have happened during a period of flat eeg

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

I object strongly to being accused of having a religious belief Religious belief has been responsible for more trouble in this world than anything else I can think of.

That is not quite the same as closing my mind to the possibility that consciousness might continue after death. It is the 'belief' bit that I object to so strongly, religious people seem to think belief is a virtue, which is just absurd (we probably agree about that).

Fine. If it makes you happy belief in an afterlife is not by definition religious.
The point remains that without assuming the existence of an afterlife there is no reason to assume that the NDE takes place during flat EEG.

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Your second point isn't really true - otherwise why would people like Persinger and Blackmore specifically try to craft a theory that does account for an NDE happening during cardiac arrest?Remember, the whole idea that the tunnel is created by the physiological effects of oxygen starvation on the optic nerve, etc. etc.

Cardiac arrest does not equal flat EEG.

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Some people have been revived and woken almost immediately and reported their NDE's. The NDE's also often incorporate elements of the resuscitation procedure, etc, etc.

See above.

Originally Posted by David Bailey

As I said before, the whole NDE conventional explanation seems to involve a mixture of two essentially inconsistent explanations.

As I said before, no.

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Tell us your theory of NDE's, and lets discuss it!

I think interpretation after the fact plays a large role in the phenomenon. There may be a special type of (hallucinatory) experience that is triggered by something (maybe lack of oxygen) that frequently occurs in connection with resuscitation.
However, if you look at reported NDEs like that of Y. Kason it seems clear that how the experience is interpreted plays a vital role. I think it possible that the entire NDE phenomenon has no single cause. It may be founded on a mixture of hallucinations occuring for different reasons, confabulation and perhaps even some creative writing.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Miguel

I think interpretation after the fact plays a large role in the phenomenon. There may be a special type of (hallucinatory) experience that is triggered by something (maybe lack of oxygen) that frequently occurs in connection with resuscitation.
However, if you look at reported NDEs like that of Y. Kason it seems clear that how the experience is interpreted plays a vital role. I think it possible that the entire NDE phenomenon has no single cause. It may be founded on a mixture of hallucinations occuring for different reasons, confabulation and perhaps even some creative writing.

Well every experience we ever have is modulated by our previous experiences.

I am naturally cautious of explanations that rely on lots of different sub-explanations, because they are nearly impossible to falsify.

I don't 'believe' in an afterlife, but I think that if consciousness is not a form of computation going on in the brain (and computation as we know it, does not seem to produce awareness) then it is a possibility.

Religion for me is defined by a willingness to believe in stuff you are told is true, for no other reason. I don't think the fact that I don't rule out an afterlife a-priori, makes me religious. If we really knew how consciousness works, I guess we could finally rule the afterlife in or out.

David

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Well every experience we ever have is modulated by our previous experiences.

I am naturally cautious of explanations that rely on lots of different sub-explanations, because they are nearly impossible to falsify.

All I'm really saying is that 1) I am not convinced that there is such a thing as an "NDE syndrom". (This probably does not mean all that much as I am not too well read on the phenomenon.)
2) There may be more than one physiological cause for the NDE.

I don't 'believe' in an afterlife, but I think that if consciousness is not a form of computation going on in the brain (and computation as we know it, does not seem to produce awareness) then it is a possibility.

Straight question: Why do you think NDEs take placing during flat EEG?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Why should we assume that the NDE experiencer knows when the NDE happened in relation to when s/he was flatlined?

~~ Paul

[larry4444]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Why should we assume that the NDE experiencer knows when the NDE happened in relation to when s/he was flatlined?

~~ Paul

because the event in the "real world" they are desribing took place when they were flatlined

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by larry4444

because the event in the "real world" they are desribing took place when they were flatlined

Can you give an example or two?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Straight question: Why do you think NDEs take placing during flat EEG?

Probably my strongest reason is that Blackmore and others have proposed the whole idea that the dying brain conjures up a complex illusion just as it is running out of oxygen and the glutamate is building up - and the brain has flat-lined. The theory is so unlikely, they must have felt the alternative - that the NDE doesn't happen when it is supposed to - was untenable.

David

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Probably my strongest reason is that Blackmore and others have proposed the whole idea that the dying brain conjures up a complex illusion just as it is running out of oxygen and the glutamate is building up - and the brain has flat-lined. The theory is so unlikely, they must have felt the alternative - that the NDE doesn't happen when it is supposed to - was untenable.

David

Can you give a reference?

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Cardiac arrest does not equal flat EEG.

According to neuropsychiatrist Dr Peter Fenwick

"The significance of this is that after a cardiac arrest you lose consciousness within eight seconds; within 11 seconds the brain’s rhythms become flat, and within 18 seconds there is no possibility of the brain creating a model of the world - so the brain is down," said Dr Fenwick.

"Yet whenever we asked people when their near-death experiences occurred, they said it was during unconsciousness. If that’s true, their experience was occurring when there was no blood flowing through the brain - and consciousness would appear to exist outside the brain."

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?...9&id=999952003