Can we have a science of the non-material

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by David

You seem to be agreeing with me (perhaps?) on this. Incredibly, there is evidence of nuclear transformations going on in those cold fusion cells. The whole subject became utterly taboo for years. It is just so crazy!

Maybe, or perhaps there are just people hoping to make some money off various scams.

Why the hell should researchers need big balls! The taboo is a total pain in the neck. We all feel it - I'll bet you don't put an interest in PSI on your website - I know I dont!

That's the way it goes. A taboo is just on one end of a spectrum from complete acceptance to complete refusal. If there were no such spectrum then everyone would have to accept everything and truth would be irrelevant.

But again, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. A lifting of the taboo would shed no light on how it is that science can study the immaterial.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Ian

What new information do computers generate?

Every solution to a problem is new information. Hell, simply duplicating bits generates new information.

Here is a simulation of evolution whose entire purpose is to measure the amount of information generated when a genetic control mechanism evolves:

ev: Evolution of Biological Information, Java Version: Run an Evolutionary Model on Your Own Computer

If you want to talk about the way humans attach meaning to something, you have to give more detail than simply "humans assign meaning and machines do not."

~~ Paul

[larry4444]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

In another thread, Paul and I got round to the question of how we could have a science of non-material (better, non-mechanistic) entities - which of course, you need for a dualist description of the world. We more or less agreed that it is possible to see how these could interact with the physical world, but how could we study them.

Paul said: "Let's start by describing how we can have an immaterial thing that is neither locatable nor mechanistic, yet somehow can be studied by science."

The curious thing is that we do already. Maths itself is a candidate, as are musical compositions etc. I mean, each of these can be written down, or represented in other ways, but these are not the essence of the thing.

Obviously these non-material 'things' are passive, but at least it is a start.


Lastly:

David

The idea of Archetypes as developed by Jung posits a non material apriori existent that manifest in patterns with structure both subjectively and objectively. He used the analogy of iron fillings taking a specific shape in a magnetic field to help illustrate. His was a life long study of the immaterial incarnating in material form. His work got the attention of noted physicists including wolfgang Pauli who worked with him on the theory of synchronicity

This thread spun off the persinger(an open minded materialist) interview which I hoped would be a place to start where materialist and nonmaterialist could find a common direction. Dean Radin also referes to himself as a crypto materialist, meaning, rather than study the “nonmaterial” let’s do an end run and expand the definition of matter/energy to account for psi or at least it’s possibility.

One thing “science” or possibly “the scientific industrial complex” could do to study the immaterial is to relax the taboo against funding paranormal research. Unless one is part of the scientific inquisition to squash any interest in taboo phenomenon, it is blatant and obvious that enough veridical results have been obtained to warrant taking the embargo off the funding of the psi/paranormal.

[Interesting Ian]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Every solution to a problem is new information.

Your understanding of information differs from mine. A computer would have to be able to sense its environment to obtain new information. Otherwise it's just presenting existing information in differing ways.

And of course computers don't attach meaning either. They are not conscious. They just follow instructions.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Larry

One thing “science” or possibly “the scientific industrial complex” could do to study the immaterial is to relax the taboo against funding paranormal research. Unless one is part of the scientific inquisition to squash any interest in taboo phenomenon, it is blatant and obvious that enough veridical results have been obtained to warrant taking the embargo off the funding of the psi/paranormal.

A fine idea. But how do you know these things are immaterial? And if they are, what does science need to do in order to get any further than mere data collection?

It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that it may not be so much a taboo but rather that no one is interested in funding psi because there is no payback. After 150 years, there may be a reluctance to throw good money after bad.

~~ Paul

[Lekatt]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Really? So there is no exchange of information in the spirit world?

~~ Paul

Information is exchanged through thought, no need for language. Thought is more exact, words are somewhat ambiguous.

[larry4444]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

A fine idea. But how do you know these things are immaterial? And if they are, what does science need to do in order to get any further than mere data collection?



It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that it may not be so much a taboo but rather that no one is interested in funding psi because there is no payback. After 150 years, there may be a reluctance to throw good money after bad.

~~ Paul

I admit parapsychology may have gotten it's ass kicked in the last century but not because it isn't real. I think by it's nature the phenomenon is more democratic. It cuts across demographic and class lines and works just as well or better with those who are less educated - possibly because a modern education often includes an endoctrination into the cult of materialism. Soo of course the scientific industrial complex is going to discredit any from of power that they can't control and make a profit from like pharmacuticals and gmos (franken foods). I not bashing science here per se but it certainly has been coopted by the power elite

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by larry4444

I admit parapsychology may have gotten it's ass kicked in the last century but not because it isn't real. I think by it's nature the phenomenon is more democratic. It cuts across demographic and class lines and works just as well or better with those who are less educated - possibly because a modern education often includes an endoctrination into the cult of materialism. Soo of course the scientific industrial complex is going to discredit any from of power that they can't control and make a profit from like pharmacuticals and gmos (franken foods). I not bashing science here per se but it certainly has been coopted by the power elite

How did this SIC do that? How did they mess with parapsychology to prevent them from getting results?
If the phenomenon is so democratic wouldn't that make it easier to show rather than less?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Lekatt

Information is exchanged through thought, no need for language. Thought is more exact, words are somewhat ambiguous.

Those thoughts have to be expressed in a language. You appear to be incorrectly equating language with speaking.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by larry

I admit parapsychology may have gotten it's ass kicked in the last century but not because it isn't real. I think by it's nature the phenomenon is more democratic. It cuts across demographic and class lines and works just as well or better with those who are less educated - possibly because a modern education often includes an endoctrination into the cult of materialism. Soo of course the scientific industrial complex is going to discredit any from of power that they can't control and make a profit from like pharmacuticals and gmos (franken foods). I not bashing science here per se but it certainly has been coopted by the power elite

This is one of the most paranoid conspiracy theories I've heard in quite some time.

Everyone can do it, so the SIC has cadres of thought police wandering around squashing psi experiments. I bet Miguel is in on it!

~~ Paul