Forum Skeptics Explain Why They Believe Psi Doesn't Exist ...

[P_Synthesis]

I can "feel energy" simply by making a mood of doing so. I can leave my body by taking the appropriate drugs. So I agree with you that there are systems for doing these things.

I'm not talking about 'making a mood' of feeling energy, I'm talking about literally and unmistakably feeling energy flowing through you. And I'm not talking about drug use but about being definitely convinced of having left your body in your normal conscious state of mind and personality. And BTW the systems I'm talking about are quite new...

This is not an explanation, it's an experience. If you have the experience, the beliefs will change. Guaranteed! Beliefs always follow experience. What can you lose?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by P_Synthesis

There are energy systems out there .....

It's experience that changes belief systems.

To be clear, when you say 'energy', do you mean exactly the same thing as a physicist means - something measured in jules (or equivalent). I think a lot of confusion arises from this.

David

[P_Synthesis]

To be clear, when you say 'energy', do you mean exactly the same thing as a physicist means - something measured in jules (or equivalent).

I would have to say probably not -- as far as I know, no-one has come up with a way to measure what I'm talking about, no matter whether in joules or something else.

You could be right that confusion arises from this... choose another word if you like, but please understand something. You are talking as if I have first defined the 'energy' (or other phenomenon) and then experienced it. As I said, that's not only not the case with me, it's not the case with anyone. You don't need to know what it is in order to experience it.

If you want to use another word, go ahead. People often use eastern words eg. chi/prana. There are western words like ruach/pneuma. But when you feel it, it feels like 'energy', energy seems a good word.

This system is a perfect example:

http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Work-He...=cm_cr_pr_pb_t

You can do it immediately and you will probably feel something right away.

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Miguel

The problem with 'psi' is that it means a lot of different things to different people.
Some may say psi is any sort of anomalous result in a psychological-like experiment. Such results exist, of course. It would be practically impossible for them not to.

I didn't have much time when I wrote this but I have more to say.
When someone asks me if psi is real my short answer would be 'no', of course. That is because what most people associate with psi are spoon-benders, psychics, mediums, the lot. They think of super-powers, of stuff that looks suspicously like magic but is supposedly non-trick.
I think that super-powers don't exist for the same reason I think that bigfoot does not exist. Yes, there is evidence for both.
EG there were bigfoot prints found and there is also this movie. But where is the other stuff like bones, shed fur, a carcass even. Such unambigous evidence should exist if the movie or the prints were real. We're left with ambigous evidence, evidence that could have been forged. I simply find the evidence incompatible with the existence of a bigfoot species.
In the same way we have lots of testimonials for super-powers. We have even videos where people demonstrate feats that really look like magic all the while affirming they don't use tricks. But where's the unambigous stuff? Why doesn't one of them grab the Randi-prize? Why aren't parapsychologists all over that?
The evidence is simply incompatible with human super-powers.

Some will point out that this does not rule out sporadic psi, weak psi, psi that is not under conscious control, etc... That is true. But what is actually the evidence for psi of such kind? It's pretty much the same evidence that we have for super-power psi. Anecdotes, testimonials... But if super-power psi did not live up to its promise then why should weak psi?

Last there is again the issue of what psi is anyways. If you ask what is a rock, I can show you a rock. If you ask what is an electromagnetic wave, I can show you the equations. But if you ask what is psi? You can only say this is psi or maybe not. It is psi or chance or a hoax or an error...
It's only psi if it's not something else... D'uh. But what is psi?
What's the difference between psi and something else?

I'll quote David because I think he said something that nearly all believers would agree on (please correct me if I'm mistaken):
My overwhelming hunch is that if psi is real, the explanation will be BIG - up there with Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, and will come with a real explanation of consciousness.

That's how we tell the difference. If the explanation isn't awesome like that it wasn't psi after all.

All senses accepted by mainstream tell us nothing about consciousness. What if there is evidence that we can perceive without using any of the known senses. Wouldn't it be most obvious to suppose that there must be another sense like those we already know? And even if it's a completely new type of sense, why would one think it has a deep connection to consciousness in a way the conventional senses don't?

So to wrap up the long answer: Psi is simply not something that exists or not but something that is deeply connected to a certain class of dualistic world-views (mainly spiritualism). It is for spiritualism what miracles are for catholicism.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by P Synthesis

This system is a perfect example:

http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Work-He...=cm_cr_pr_pb_t

You can do it immediately and you will probably feel something right away.

From the Wiki article on the author, Robert Bruce:

Originally Posted by Wiki

A key concept in Bruce's theory of projection is the Mind Split Effect.[8] In contrast to the traditional view that projection leaves the physical body empty of consciousness, Bruce's interpretation is that physical consciousness remains in-situ, but is subject to a duplication process. According to this theory, after duplication the multiple versions of a projector's consciousness operate largely independently, building up separate but simultaneous memory traces that compete when they recombine, confusing later recollections.

Righty-o.

I found this. I'll give it a look:

http://www.xehupatl.com/download_fil...rgy_Ways_1.pdf

~~ Paul

[P_Synthesis]

Psi is simply not something that exists or not but something that is deeply connected to a certain class of dualistic world-views (mainly spiritualism). It is for spiritualism what miracles are for catholicism.

That's broadly correct I suppose but you ought to define 'dualism' -- it has different meanings when scientists use it from the philosophical use and the spiritual/religious use.

'Psi' is no more connected to spiritualism than to any other class of beliefs in which the experience of these things is found -- it is experiences that determine the belief, not the explanation. Psi experiences are universal in human culture and history all over the world... they take a particular form in each culture but there are commonalities.

As long as you are on this subject sir:

Last there is again the issue of what psi is anyways. If you ask what is a rock, I can show you a rock.

... how are you doing with the OBE stuff you said you would check up on? Have you decided which method to go for yet? You can experience OBE without any explanation and that will change the game a little for you in my opinion. If you ask 'what is an OBE', I can show you how to have one.

[P_Synthesis]

Oh man Paul, you just found a completely free resource with much of the same stuff in it... it's an older version with no illustrations and less detail, but you ought to get the sensations from that right enough.

Wonder how they got hold of that? Legally I hope.

EDIT: BTW the mind-split is somewhat controversial, but don't worry about it since it applies only to OBE not energy work

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by P_Synthesis

If you want to use another word, go ahead. People often use eastern words eg. chi/prana. There are western words like ruach/pneuma. But when you feel it, it feels like 'energy', energy seems a good word.

Why not use "psychic excitation" - or even "psychic energy", because remember, this forum contains a strange mixture of psi and physics (and a bit of psychology)

David

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Miguel

All senses accepted by mainstream tell us nothing about consciousness. What if there is evidence that we can perceive without using any of the known senses. Wouldn't it be most obvious to suppose that there must be another sense like those we already know? And even if it's a completely new type of sense, why would one think it has a deep connection to consciousness in a way the conventional senses don't?

Suppose it turned out that we had a previously unknown ability to sense magnetic fields. I would consider that the use of that sense would not be genuine psi.

However, think of presentiment - the whole idea of that setup is to rule out conventional explanations, even involving previously unrecognised senses. The same goes for Sheldrake's dog experiments - there really isn't going to be a new sense discovered to explain those results! These are psi, or they are artifacts of some sort (which I rather doubt). In the same way, your rock might turn out to be a piece of concrete on closer inspection!

The best ESP experiments are done in electromagnetically screened rooms - not because people are known to obtain information that way, but just to help rule out even hypothetical sensory modes.

I think it is worth remembering that Sheldrake surveyed a large number of pet owners to establish what unusual abilities they had observed - he didn't just find an anomaly and flog it to death! Lot's of people wrote to him and suggested he study this particular trait - as both Paqart and I would have done if he had asked us!

David

[P_Synthesis]

Why not use "psychic excitation" - or even "psychic energy", because remember, this forum contains a strange mixture of psi and physics (and a bit of psychology)

I should probably use 'mind-energy' because that is in the forum title, or 'chi' because it's recognized. Or I could use energy2.

I promise to make clear which I'm referring to in future.