Video : Fred Alan Wolf - Subjectivity may be more fundamental than material reality

[Open Mind]

Profile | Does Physical Reality Go Beyond? (Fred Alan Wolf) | Closer to Truth

I wanted to put this little video up as it is coherent to many current topics in this forum.

- Materialists ignoring the consequences of quantum mechanics
- Materialsts desire to default to a deteministic assumptions or model, that is false.
- Subjectivity, dreams, etc. are arguably more fundamental than objectivity (Objectivity being the product of shared subjectivities)

[Open Mind]

Current NDE research

Currently in some hospitals around the world, hard to guess correctly pictures have been placed in locations high above beds where it is speculated Near Death Experiencers would need to have an Out of the Body Experience to see these. I have already heard some materialists claim that if most NDE patients do not see these correctly, Near Death Experiences must be false and they will claim some correct matching should be dismissed as lucky coincidences..

It is a big mistake to allow materialists to demand that a Near Death Experience must perfectly match the material world in a perfectly deterministic manner ..... because material realism is wrecked as any sort of fundamental reference point by quantum mechanics ... therefore using our material world as a fundamental reference to judge whether NDEs are real is just pandering to the (false) assumptions of materialists.

Any ESP (ruling out normal physical senses) during the NDE statistically well beyond chance expectation is arguably enough to disprove materialism, perfect matching is not required

If we all dreamed the same dream (or dream world) during sleep at night, we would have to call it 'real' although not matching the state of our material world at all. Objectivity means shared, it doesn't mean matter.

We have already seen researchers like Sue Blackmore decide Out of the Body Experiences must very accurately match the material world or it is a brain generated illusion..... frankly I think she jumped the gun.

Traditionally, out of the body experience, was not floating through our material world but a malleable mental reconstruction of it ... it was viewed as the place of confusion where subjectivity warped between shared realities (e.g. confused ghost trapped in its own dream or time loop, the earthbound spirit etc.) .... .traditionally another reality shared with others was through the light (or light tunnel) experience, not this side of it.. (This is the symbolism behind many religions not that I am religious)

It is important on testing paranormal claims, that the actual claim is being tested and not some materialist's reinterpretation of it based upon material reference point assumptions.

[Kim]

I loved the video especially the parts about Native Austrailians and their belief that God dreamed the world. It echos concepts of all major religions... God created, and so we create our perception of the world... through our thoughts dreams and ideas.

Taking it a step fruther, it's been my observation that people believe what they have always tended to believe, which is exactly what they want to believe... what they think they know for a fact. In fact they are choosing the way their world works... their percieved world that is. They are creating their own parallel universe, in which they alone live. Their spouce and neighbors all have their own universe in which they make the rules... but each person has their own concept. That concept is rock solid reality to them, and to suggest an opposing concept is true... well that's just insane to them.

This tendency permeates every aspect of life and society. We all have a world view on each and every subject. For example, a Republican skeptic materialist, will almost certainly always be a Republican skeptic materialist no matter what evidence he witnesses. If Republicans blew up the entire world, and the world were populated only with the ghosts of everyone on the planet including themselves, and there was no more material world at all left, they would still be insisting ghosts don't exist, the Democrats will ruin the world, and the physical world is the only reality. WE are all that way, true believers, atheists, spiritualists, alien abductees, Christians, the politically parinoid, the Democrats, Greens, Communists, Nazis, are all looking at the world through the colored glasses of their choice, and they don't want to trade glasses.

People almost never change their minds about anything important once they have decided, and when they do it is because their motivations change, not because of any preticular evidence. In fact no matter what the evidence, it is always percieved according to preconcieved assumptions. It is impossible to break someone free of their shackles and in fact it is their decision, and truthfully their emotional needs that cause them to cling to the chains of their prefered POV.

Why? Why do people cling to their beliefs and world view? Just as some people prefer a cabin in the mountains, while others want a 14th floor condo at the beach, it is where they are most comfortable and most happy. There is a great deal of comfort that comes in maintaining our belief system. WE have to keep the picture of reality that suits us best.

I've tried to debate with Republicans. I've tried to convert Atheists, and I've even tried to prove things to skeptics, and then I thought... well I am not going to change my mind. I don't want to be a Repubican, I don't have it in me to be a skeptic, and if I EVER decided there was no spiritual realm and no God and no heaven, I could not continue... there would be no reason, and I would pray for death... oh wait... no God... I would just be miserable for the rest of my days. My debating opponents probably feel the same way. They would be miserable inside my POV, and they are just as certain they are right as I am. They don't want to see MY truth, and I do not want to see theirs, and so arguing, and debating, when our POVs are so diverse is futile. Now if we are closer to the same opinion, then we may learn a few things, and even agree on some points... but trying to convert a skeptic, or a believer is useless until the skeptic decides he wants to believe, and with believers, changing their minds can be utterly devestating.

I do not know WHY anyone would WANT to believe there is no afterlife. But some people do, and that is why they refuse to believe in NDEs. Some people do believe in the Afterlife, so they naturally believe in NDEs. They believe in the afterlife regardless of the NDE evidence, while the skeptics believe the consciousness dies with the brain regardless of the NDE evidence. No one is going to change their minds because you are arguing and presenting evidence. No one is going to change their minds because you choose to debunk their evidence. People think what they thought in the first place... and that's as far as they are going to allow it to go.

As far as proving... there are foster children in this world who cannot prove their existance because their birth certificates were lost. When they grow up, and try to leave their orphanage, they cannot get a drivers licence, or a job, and really have no provable identity.. and yet they have a body, and breath of life, the same as the rest of us. How could the whole system be so jaded and skeptical not to create a document for them so that they can be recognized as human beings. Obviously they exist... but they cannot prove it because a single piece of paper is lost. It is absurd, and most skeptical arguments seem just as absurd to me... but then I am a believer.

I wear my believer red sun glasses... and they wear their green skeptic sun glasses. I see red and they see green... Therefore my world is red and their world is green. I don't like green and they don't like red. It's really that simple as far as I am concerned. I'd rather live my life in my red world, than waste my time explaining to them that the world is red. Why bother, they know it is green.

Kim

[Open Mind]

Kim, I enjoyed reading your post .... I agree with most of what you said, except ....

In fact they are choosing the way their world works... their percieved world that is. They are creating their own parallel universe, in which they alone live.

But our perceived world has people doing things we do not want them to do ... so it can't be quite that simple .IMHO ... reality is somehow associated with 'shared' information ... I am not claiming there is only one fundamental reference point like materialists believe, matter (whatever that is) is forcing us to share the same perspective to some degree whether we believe it or not.

I am not a fan of 'The Secret' .... it gives people the idea they can shape anything in the world to their own personal desire..... a very positive belief but is it true? To some extent it may work ....... however perhaps it should be updated to 'The Collective Secret' as research in parapsychology is not showing individual super powers warping the world to personal desires .... it is showing smaller effects that are interactive with others viewpoints IMHO.

Now perhaps upon brain death, you are correct the personal subjectivity survives and consciousness can enter 2 possible states (exactly the same as on here on earth) (1) a dream state that doesn't model shared reality and which anything can seemingly occur which is either pleasant or a nightmare depending on the habitual mental patterns of that individual's lifetime.... ... (2) a new shared reality with others, in which reality is not just our own making, the more conscious beings who share it, the more real and solid it becomes? Is that what we are in?

I don't know This topic is speculation .... but a speculation, as Fred Alan Wolf points out, that results from philosophical consequences of quantum mechanics (and what is missing from it).

[Open Mind]

I've not really read a lot of Fred Alan Wolf, mostly others ... I knew he had something to do with 'The Secret' which implies a law of attracton is fundamental but it seems that is not Fred Alan Wolf's actual viewpoint ...

'..There is a big difference between just thinking 1) "I want a big car" 2) "I am not good enough" or 3) "I am good" or 4) "I am ugly" or 5) "I am happy" and taking an appropriate action to do something about them. The LOA (Law of Attraction) seems to imply that merely thinking such thoughts will attract the object of those thoughts to you. I don't think the universe works this way. When you think those thoughts you tend to act according to them and those actions will attract you to those objects and modify your behavior accordingly. There is no magic field "out there" or magic genii "out there" that will answer those thoughts by granting your wishes as the film seems to imply. That magic field or genii is yourself. -Fred Alan Wolf

[Open Mind]

This is interesting .... Wolf is talking about 4 interpretations of the measurement problem ....

Question from a reader in Japan: Quite a few people do not seem to know yet what [are meant by] Parallel Universes, and may not at once believe [they exist] when first learning about them. If the presence of, and thought about, Parallel Universes were taken for granted by every person throughout the world, what sort of world would appear?

Fred Alan Wolf's Answer: The physical world we live in follows laws and rules based on our current knowledge. As our knowledge changes, it appears that the rules and laws also change. Quantum physics provides the best laws and rules governing our world and the whole universe as far as we know. In other words, quantum physics describes the real world we live in.

So far there are many, perhaps four main, interpretations of quantum physics currently in use. They are the Bohr collapse postulate, the Cramer transactional postulate, the Everett parallel worlds postulate, and the Bohm hidden variable postulate. They all differ in what they say the world is made of, but they all are based on the quantum physics mathematical laws describing a quantum wave function.

In all of these interpretations, the quantum wave function includes many parallel branches. But what happens to these branches changes according to the interpretation.

In the Cramer transactional interpretation and the Bohr collapse postulate, the world is made from a quantum wave function that collapses whenever an observation occurs causing all of the branches to disappear except one. In the transactional interpretation the wave is real; it exists in real space and time; before and after the collapse. In the Bohr collapse model, the wave is imaginal, it only exists in the mind; before and after the collapse. The collapse occurs instantly in the Bohr postulate but requires a backward through time wave action in the transactional view. There is only one real world which arises from the collapse and exists on the one remaining branch.

In the Bohm and parallel universes postulate, the quantum wave function is real and also includes many parallel branches that do not disappear when an observation occurs. In the parallel universes postulate the world is made from all of these overlapping parallel worlds branches. In the Bohm postulate, there is only one real world existing on one of the branches; we don't know which branch; and the other parallel branch possibilities are empty of matter.

Hence how people think changes the view we have of our world. Most likely the Bohm and parallel universes interpretations are correct, since they don't have any mysterious collapse mechanism that lies outside of physics. However they are very different. I am currently working on a model of mind and matter that includes psychology. My thinking tends to fit the parallel universes interpretation in this model, however, I am beginning to see how the Bohm view may actually be more relevant.

http://www.fredalanwolf.com/page5.htm

Not sure I agree....(but perhaps Wolf knows better)

Personally, I reject the Cramer's Transactional Interpretation because it seems incompatible with even a sense of free will, it doesn't allow it to exist or even if free will didn't exist explain why the illusion of it should evolve at all.

The Many Worlds Intepretation doesn't seem right to me. I think other realities do exist ... but to imagine an inifinity of pointless material (rather than subjective) worlds ... to try dodge the observer problem seems a desperate attempt to keep the universe dumb and consciousness the product of material brains in our and other universes. I think other shared realities do exist but to claim these are all material like and we just happen by freak accident to be in one with brain consciousness is probably nonsense.... it does allow materialists to believe these are beyond our measurement, therefore can be ignored and therefore our material world is again viewed as the only important thing and upon brain death oblivion (unless one is instantly reincarnated is tagged on)

I don't think Bohm's non-local hidden variables version is quite correct either .... but it is superior to the local hidden variable theories required for local (material) realism to work, which are already falsified experimentally.

I'd go a consciousness causes collapse theory but it has to be one that can differentiate between individual consciousness and collective consciousness in a coherent way ...... whatever that interpretation is, it has to explain our material world, yet also fit what the research in psychical / parapsychological research is pointing to..

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Kim, I enjoyed reading your post .... I agree with most of what you said, except ....



But our perceived world has people doing things we do not want them to do ... so it can't be quite that simple .IMHO ... reality is somehow associated with 'shared' information ... I am not claiming there is only one fundamental reference point like materialists believe, matter (whatever that is) is forcing us to share the same perspective to some degree whether we believe it or not.

Thanks, you make some good points. While IMO we create our own reality it is all subconscious, unless we happen to be a super guru, who actually controls all of our mind... I mean technically our mind also controls and creates our nightmares so yes, just because we make something doesn't mean we intended to. Our fears impact our lives even more than our desires most of the time. Also we do not control other people directly. They still have their own free will.

All I meant by the above though is that we control how we percieve a situation. Three people witness the same crime, but no one sees exactly the same thing, even if they were all there standing side by side. Actually we only process and recall a tiny percent of what we see and hear.. and we fill in the blanks the way we choose to... which might explain the descrepencies in NDEs as well... I mean if we can't pay attention in real life... why should our observation skills suddenly be perfect just because we died? LOL

I am not a fan of 'The Secret' .... it gives people the idea they can shape anything in the world to their own personal desire..... a very positive belief but is it true? To some extent it may work ....... however perhaps it should be updated to 'The Collective Secret' as research in parapsychology is not showing individual super powers warping the world to personal desires .... it is showing smaller effects that are interactive with others viewpoints IMHO.

IMO the Secret is that selfish materialistic people are trying to get rich off a very real spiritual principle which has nothing to do with the greedy spirit that video promotes. It will not work for them though, because their motivation is all wrong, and they are not following all the rules nor are they wanting the kinds of rewards people should even ask for. "you have not because you ask not. You ask and recieve not because you ask amiss that you might consume it uppon your lusts." That quote sizes it up pretty well.

Now perhaps upon brain death, you are correct the personal subjectivity survives and consciousness can enter 2 possible states (exactly the same as on here on earth) (1) a dream state that doesn't model shared reality and which anything can seemingly occur which is either pleasant or a nightmare depending on the habitual mental patterns of that individual's lifetime.... ... (2) a new shared reality with others, in which reality is not just our own making, the more conscious beings who share it, the more real and solid it becomes? Is that what we are in?

I don't know This topic is speculation .... but a speculation, as Fred Alan Wolf points out, that results from philosophical consequences of quantum mechanics (and what is missing from it).

I think it goes a lot deeper than picking 1 or 2... but for that you have to put on some red sunglasses, and follow me a lot fruther down the rabbit hole... LOL

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Kim

IMO the Secret is that selfish materialistic people are trying to get rich off a very real spiritual principle which has nothing to do with the greedy spirit that video promotes.

Kim, I think you are right ... I doubt everyone can be fabulously wealthy as it is a comparitive term, the desire is often to be better off than others, to be peceived as more important by others by having the trappings of material success ....however there becomes a point when having extra means the problem of spending time maintaining what one doesn't really need

Admittedly I am a bit biased against the 'Many Worlds Interpretation' ... I suspect its popularity with believers might be ' I can have everything, I just need to get my consciousness into the universe that best suits me' .... or the materialist will go the Many Worlds Interpretation for very different reasons, to maintain all life is accident devoid of any real meaning or purpose, so one might is well do everything selfish one wants before consciousness ends on brain death.

Also the Many Worlds Interpretation is extremely far fetched to me .... but perhaps I am thinking inside the box.

I do think there is some truth in the 'Law of Atrraction' if viewed more as 'resonance' , I like Sheldrake's Morphic Resonance theory (far less far fetched than a many worlds theory to me, although on a different but related issue).... Fred Alan Wolf gves his opinon comments ...

'... Let me give you my answer regarding the movie The Secret and the LOA [Law of Atrraction] talked about in that movie. Do like things really attract each other? Actually in quantum physics we find that like doesn't attract like, and if you notice I never made that point in the film. Like charges repel each other (+ repels + and - repels -) and unlike charges attract (+ attracts -). The better metaphor might be resonance, that two things that vibrate together have more energy as compared to two things that vibrate out of phase with each other in which case they have no energy. When you are attracted to another person it is likely that you and the other are in some sense vibrating in phase with each other and each of you is energized more than just adding up your separate energies--it's more like 4 times the energy of each individual. With 3 persons it goes as 9 times and so on. Hence large crowds rock at a concert together because those in attendance are each enormously energized by the presence of the others in like mind sets. Hence the rock concert high, or the Sunday at church feeling and so on. The same thing holds for the Marine Corp or for a nation going to war or for any fascist or racist movement.

...... You will attract others who are on your wavelength and repel others who are not. So be careful what you put out to the world. If you are playing a false card, you will attract those people who think and feel as you do. Walk your talk. Be honest. Tell the truth as best as you know it. ....' -Fred Alan Wolf

[Kim]

Kim, I think you are right ... I doubt everyone can be fabulously wealthy as it is a comparitive term, the desire is often to be better off than others, to be peceived as more important by others by having the trappings of material success ....however there becomes a point when having extra means the problem of spending time maintaining what one doesn't really need

Exactly Open Mind, and this desire to lord it over others runs counter to other spiritual principles. It has been my observation that GIVING and open hearted generosity are rewarded by the universe, while excessive living tends to be punished in the long run.

I once read about a very wealthy man who found having that much money to be a burden. He decided he didn't need half of it so he resolved to give away half of everything he had. He gave to all who asked him, until he'd given what he figured to be half of his net worth. To his frustration by now, he now had even more money than he had before. All his investments produced incredibly even in a rough economy. Determinedly he begun giving even more money the next year, only to find that his fortune grew despite his trying to give it away. Generosity is a HUGE factor in Attraction, and this part is totally ignored in "the Secret" IMO it will not work without substantial giving, and a better motivation.

Admittedly I am a bit biased against the 'Many Worlds Interpretation' ... I suspect its popularity with believers might be ' I can have everything, I just need to get my consciousness into the universe that best suits me' .... or the materialist will go the Many Worlds Interpretation for very different reasons, to maintain all life is accident devoid of any real meaning or purpose, so one might is well do everything selfish one wants before consciousness ends on brain death.

I'm aware of other worlds, but don't know much about the theory. As a matter of fact I may do some research on the subject. My theory as one who experiences and compares notes with others like me goes like this. There are many plains of existence on the etherial and astral realms. Etherial realms overlap this planet, and sensitive people are aware of the ones that are in their location. There are layers to the etherial, each carrying a different set of information. There is a layer that shows past events that occured in that spot. There is a layer that shows the aura of individuals present at the time. There are layers with energic fields and low level energic entities. There is a layer Angels appear on, which is 15 demensional BTW. The Angelic layer of the etherial has litterally 15 deminsions, just as our physical world has three.

In addition there are astral and spiritual worlds which either do not overlap this planet or overlap in places other than where our physical location is. The situation that human beings have is that we have an astral home which is linked to us. This home is often described by multiple souled people, as a place where their "multiple personalities" reside. It is also described by the spiritually aware. My own home has 32 doors going out into different astral worlds... in my home all but a couple of these doors stay open, but I normally only go out of a few of them. The one we relate to most, we go to. There are heavens, hells, kingdoms, and limbos. There are Roman worlds, Aztec worlds, Celtic worlds... and worlds with various circumstances that are hard to explain... with mythical creatures, and unusual climate phenomonons. There are energic cloudy worlds where one is neither here nor there, and there are no objects to reference area or distance... one is a cloud mingling with other clouds.

Additionally while in the physical we are all in one place, and our consciousness has trouble keeping up with more than one or two locations, the human spirit can be multiply located. WE can be in heaven and physically on earth at the same time for instance, and still have forms elsewhere. When our astral form(s) are in undesirable places or circumstances it does impact the psyche, even if individual is unaware of the other form who is in trouble. People can get trapped in limbos, by different types of limbo holders, and their souls must be retrieved.

I found this on wikipedia-

MWI's main conclusion is that the universe (or multiverse in this context) is composed of a quantum superposition of very many, possibly even a non-denumerablely infinitely[9] many, increasingly divergent, non-communicating parallel universes or quantum worlds.

Non-communicating, brings up a discussion we had on my forum once. What impact will our communication over the internet, and practitioners visiting various worlds which we normally would not even know about, have on the worlds themselves?

Also the Many Worlds Interpretation is extremely far fetched to me .... but perhaps I am thinking inside the box.

LOL If you ever want to get out of your box, and learn about other worlds come visit us. WE have not seen a box in years. (we are all completely nuts)

Spirit Sense - Home

You might find this thread interesting and on topic.

Spirit Sense - What is your world like?

When you are attracted to another person it is likely that you and the other are in some sense vibrating in phase with each other and each of you is energized more than just adding up your separate energies--it's more like 4 times the energy of each individual. With 3 persons it goes as 9 times and so on. Hence large crowds rock at a concert together because those in attendance are each enormously energized by the presence of the others in like mind sets. Hence the rock concert high, or the Sunday at church feeling and so on. The same thing holds for the Marine Corp or for a nation going to war or for any fascist or racist movement.

There are many different types of interaction between energies. One that I discovered is that a rapid exchange of emotional or spiritual energy between two or more beings GENERATES, just like a physical generator. Just as a generator spins to make power so in the energy world of Chakras everything spins. The Heart Chakra spins in a clockwise direction sending a spiral of energy towards another person. The energy is recieved, and then spun back to the next person and back around to form a circle of power. These people don't have to be in the same room either, or in the same country for that matter. Physical distance means nothing, if there is a strong link.

...... You will attract others who are on your wavelength and repel others who are not. So be careful what you put out to the world. If you are playing a false card, you will attract those people who think and feel as you do. Walk your talk. Be honest. Tell the truth as best as you know it. ....' -Fred Alan Wolf

Yes, I think so too... and this is true on so many levels, spiritual, and emotional, also both consciously and unconsciously... "birds of a feather" and all that. LOL

[paqart]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Kim, I think you are right ... I doubt everyone can be fabulously wealthy as it is a comparitive term, the desire is often to be better off than others, to be peceived as more important by others by having the trappings of material success ....however there becomes a point when having extra means the problem of spending time maintaining what one doesn't really need

Pardon me for jumping in here. I haven't seen the movie, so I may have interpreted your statement incorrectly, but if it is what I think, then I want to share an opinion.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I've had quite a lot of psychic experiences, including a few that had to do with money. First off, I have never tried to get money this way, and if I tried, doubt it would work. When I have needed it or had a strong desire for it, it has always come my way. The same is true of other non-monetary items.

This may indicate some justification for believing "if you wish it, you will have it", but I think that is a very naive take on what is really going on. Strangely enough, I react about the same to people who ask me to dream up winning lottery numbers (and share them) and people who want me to prove psi. In both cases it is annoying, but more importantly, comes across as selfish on the part of the part of the person asking, not to mention ignorant.

I have seen with my own eyes that some very bizarre wish fulfillment can be successful when the right conditions are present, but one of those conditions may be a level of understanding that most people haven't got, and cannot acquire by watching a video or reading a book. I've heard of spontaneous situations where this has happened during emergencies, but absent that factor, most people are too closed to the knowledge they need to accomplish this.

I would like to say there is a moral component to this also, but don't think there is. People can accomplish amazing this, both charitable and selfish, just by focusing enough mental energy on the goal. The problem is that all things have a price. Using one's energy to satisfy selfish desires creates numerous debts that must eventually be repaid, and this is not painless. To my mind, it is always better to focus on one's needs, and never mind about the rest.

In New York City, I attended Yoga classes with a man named Dharma Mittra. On one occasion I went with a friend of mine, who accidentally overpaid him for the lesson. As we were leaving, he realized his error, but wasn't too worried about a few dollars, so he told Dharma to forget about it. Dharma wouldn't have it. He asked us to wait, got the right change, and gave it to my friend. He said he didn't want to be forced to be reborn into another life just to repay the debt.

I like Dharma's attitude here, and am glad I had the opportunity to witness that scene as an example.

AP