94. Dr. Jeffrey Long?s Near-Death Experience Research a ?Game Changer? for Science (P

[alextsakiris]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

So the negative reviewers at Amazon are mistaken?

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences

I have just bought the book. If this thing turns out to be a bunch of anecdotes collected on the Web I'm going to be really annoyed.

~~ Paul

The reviewer on Amazon has misses the point... CONSCIOUSNESS SURVIVES DEATH. The paradigm has shifted.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by alextsakiris

The reviewer on Amazon has misses the point... CONSCIOUSNESS SURVIVES DEATH. The paradigm has shifted.

Uh, I'm not sure he's the one missing the point. UPPERCASE CLAIMS require real evidence, not a bunch of stories collected on the Web.

~~ Paul

[Ersby]

Originally Posted by alextsakiris

It's in the book.

I was hoping for a name, title, date etc.

[tux0]

keep trying to shift that paradigm, bro. if you really believe the mind survives death why dont you just kill yourself right now?

[Interesting Ian]

Originally Posted by tux0

keep trying to shift that paradigm, bro. if you really believe the mind survives death why dont you just kill yourself right now?

Umm . .because people are frightened of dying? Whether there's an afterlife or not makes no difference to my fear of dying!

[Eric Debois]

Here's the Today Show interview.
YouTube - Today Show: Woman recounts life after death - 01/20/2010

I don't see the use of a web form is in and of itself as problem, but I wonder how it was advertised, and if it's been culled, if there were any obvious hoaxers.

Did he have personal contact with any experiencers, or is it all more or less anonymous?

[FastEddieB]

When I began my hiatus from this site, I said I'd still listen to the podcast and reserved the right to chime in from time to time.

I have just a few comments for now on this latest podcast:

1) Dr. Long goes on and on abut the "reality" of Near Death Experiences.

I will stipulate: of COURSE Near Death Experiences are real. At various times, certain individuals are NEAR to DEATH and they have an EXPERIENCE. While this may make them worthy of study, it does NOT lead to a lot of the places Dr. Long wants to go with this.

In the same way, UFO's are "real". There are, in fact, occasionally Flying Objects that are Unidentified.

Both NDE's and UFO's are "real", but for now, only in a trivial, definitional sense.

2) "Dr. Jeffrey Long: Yes. I think true science involves addressing the evidence. In fact, a basic scientific principle is that which is real is consistently observed. I have over 1,300 near-death experiences in my research database. There’s no question that that is a consistent observation. You cannot use the term, “anecdote” when you talk about a research database that’s that great."

Yes, there certainly is a question.

One could gather literally millions of anecdotes about the power of prayer, or contacts with angels, that sort of thing. What would that tell us about the reality of these things? By itself, nothing. Again, the "experience" of being cured after prayer is real. The "reality" of the prayer actually causing that cure is what's at issue. Dr. Long seems intelligent and well spoken, but I do think he's fallen victim to the power of anecdotes here.

3) "People can decide for themselves how convincing each line of evidence is for the reality of near-death experience and its consistent message of an afterlife."

Yes, they can. But what a HUGE (and unsubstantiated) leap from experiences that occur NEAR death to assumptions that "life" goes on "after" death.

Anyway, my feelings can be largely summarized by Miracle Max in "The Princess Bride":

"Miracle Max: See, there's a big difference between mostly dead, and all dead. Now, mostly dead: he's slightly alive. All dead: well, with all dead, there's usually only one thing that you can do.

Inigo: What's that?

Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change.

[Interesting Ian]

Regarding that link that was mentioned. I agree that those 9 features of NDEs do indeed provide powerful evidence for survival. I got something like 99.994% probability of an afterlife.

However that percentage probability is completely fallacious because it fails to take into account any of the evidence presenting difficulty for supposing NDEs are a gateway to an afterlife!

For example, there's the fact that only 12% of people near death report an NDE. On rare occasions people report seeing people who are still alive during their experience. The content of some NDEs are clearly ludicrous eg the meaningless void experiences. People who have OBEs without NDEs sometimes report seeing things in their physical environment during their OBE which did not accurately depict the true physical environment.

And then of course there's all the evidence suggesting that consciousness is wholly a product of the brain eg drinking alcohol makes us more emotional, alzheimers, the case of Phineas Gage etc.

Other supposed difficulties with supposing that NDEs are a gateway to an afterlife I don't agree with. But really we need a book which addresses all the evidence -- both the evidence for as well as against the reality of NDEs.

All these NDE books just seem to completely ignore the difficulties I've mentioned and basically just consider all the positive evidence. Skeptical sources do the converse.

I do think though that considering all the evidence as a whole, as well as approaching the whole issue from a philosophical perspective (eg if brains generate consciousness it is really difficult to subscribe to the commonsensical notion of an enduring self), then the survival hypothesis seems much more likely than extinction.

I have ordered the book though from Amazon UK. It was despatched yesterday.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Interesting Ian

Umm . .because people are frightened of dying? Whether there's an afterlife or not makes no difference to my fear of dying!

Exactly - people like me used to take for granted that death meant oblivion - not a nice concept, but I suppose you get used to it!

Now we have a much less certain picture. I mean it might be oblivion, but if not, who knows how the saga will continue after passing up that tunnel and meeting whoever, or whatever

I think it is really silly to imply that this is about wish fulfillment. If it were, I think people would report a much more complete picture of the beyond - good food, good sex, lots of interesting people, etc.

David

[alextsakiris]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Uh, I'm not sure he's the one missing the point. UPPERCASE CLAIMS require real evidence, not a bunch of stories collected on the Web.

~~ Paul

he does miss the point because at the end of his review he concludes that consciousness probably DOES (notice the caps ) survive death... so, he's kinda burying the lead in his own review.

But enough about some Amazon reviewer... find some researcher/scientist that can stand toe-to-toe with Long.