1 Million Dollar Challenge To Materialists – Prove A Computer Can Experience A Dream!

[Open Mind]

Sparky,

Why are you persisting with defending the JREF prize challenge farce? .... Look at the order of these questions in JREF FAQ ... this is how to pretend one is busy testing hundreds of people who supposedly failed. Yet I estimate it is around 24 no-hopers that have been tested..

1.3 How many people have applied for the Challenge?

Between 1964 and 1982, Randi declared that over 650 people had applied. Between 1997 and February 15, 2005, there had been a total of 360 official, notarized applications. Applications continue to pour in!

1.4 Has anyone ever gotten past the preliminary test?

No. Some people use this fact as a reason not to apply – and yet the protocol is never altered once the applicant agrees to it. In fact, we ask the applicant to design the test.

1.5 Has anyone taken the formal test?

No. Applicants must pass the preliminary test in order to move on to a formal test. So far, no one has ever performed the paranormal ability they claimed to have.

So again, it is worded to sound like hundreds, possibly even 650 people have failed trial .... where do JREF mention how many were actually tested? Not anywhere.....they even have the audacity to raise the question on their website (see my previous post) which is is fudged again to sound like hundreds have been tested when in fact it is an embarrassing low number of tests for the ridiculous amount of media attention the Randi challenge has received. ...

Originally Posted by sparky

why don't you do that , would be a good test :
if you collected these people , ask them to clearly , and in understandable langauge , state their claim : you will see how many you have left

Perhaps a psi proponent with video crew will do it one day.... however it still wouldn't change Randi fans interpretation of the JREF challenge, they seem to trust Randi beyond questioning.

i would say it is the other way around since history shows all tests were negative they probably are afraid of negative publicity

JREF plays upon this 'negative' aspect, JREF in earlier wording used the term 'adversarial' to describe JREF's attitude during challenge (the wording later changed) .... . there is a thin dividing line between challenge tone that operates like 'we don't believe but you can prove us wrong' .... and potentially 'I am going to show you are wrong and humiliate you in front of others'.

The latter attitude could be quite easily hidden below the facade of being experts in psi research, they aren't.

This is what the wording of entrants have to agree to ...

' ...the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, and/or against any persons peripherally involved, and/or against the James Randi Educational Foundation. This applies to injury, and/or accident, and/or any other damage of a physical and/or emotional nature, and/or financial and/or professional loss, and/or damage of any kind....'

Would you enter under these conditions? I think any person familiar with JREF's attitude would have to be a fruitcake to enter ... one of the fastest applications to reach an accepted test was the woman who claimed she could make people urinate. The sillier the claim, the more JREF seem to like it.

as you yourself stated , small effect sizes that arguably fall within noise levels

I never stated ESP are within noise levels, these just require careful tests or these are missed. Weak and harder to measure effects exist (e.g. the best detectors miss 99.9% of all solar neutrinos from the sun)

Also most paranormal claims are not from people claiming 'hey look what super power I have with my mind under personal command' (generally these magicians out to make a career) ... the paranormal claim is far more often something is occurring beyond themselves, they witness an odd event or information comes through them rather than is sourced from them. That is most common type of claim and it cannot enter a prize challenge.

If someone is making the claim to be '90% accurate' well the burden of proof is indeed on them and I have no objection to Randi asking them to enter prize ........however most I've met make no promises about getting information correct, they are trying to do something that isn't easy and they know they are often wrong.

in 1984 he decided to do something and infected himself with a culture of helicobacter , promptly got symptoms , and subsuquently cured himself with a mix of acid inhibitors and antibiotics this was considered a stunt but ultimately the result was an immediate interest in his work which speeded up the research and resulting cure for completeness it was never actually shown , the bacteria was in his stomac , despite of the symptoms

The evidence was overwhelming by the mid/late 1980s, yet more costly non-cure treatments were still being used for another decade. The leading science journal 'Nature' didn't clearly support the claim until around the early/mid 1990s. Incidentally the editor during this period was John Maddox, a CSICOP fellow, friend of Randi, (who also said Sheldrake's book was a candidate for burning) .....so I don't know what point you are trying to make.

[sparky]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Sparky,

Why are you persisting with defending the JREF prize challenge farce? .... .

not defending , people at the JREF can defend themselfs
nearly pointing out it has its use , an it isn't going away

1.3 How many people have applied for the Challenge?

Between 1964 and 1982, Randi declared that over 650 people had applied. Between 1997 and February 15, 2005, there had been a total of 360 official, notarized applications. Applications continue to pour in!

1.4 Has anyone ever gotten past the preliminary test?

No. Some people use this fact as a reason not to apply – and yet the protocol is never altered once the applicant agrees to it. In fact, we ask the applicant to design the test.

1.5 Has anyone taken the formal test?

No. Applicants must pass the preliminary test in order to move on to a formal test. So far, no one has ever performed the paranormal ability they claimed to have.

sounds pretty clear to me
and , yes , the are less then forthcoming about the number of applicants tested
i think i admitted that much a few posts back
but i also pointed out you can not blame the challenge for having few takers

This is what the wording of entrants have to agree to ...

' ...the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, and/or against any persons peripherally involved, and/or against the James Randi Educational Foundation. This applies to injury, and/or accident, and/or any other damage of a physical and/or emotional nature, and/or financial and/or professional loss, and/or damage of any kind....'

Would you enter under these conditions? I think any person familiar with JREF's attitude would have to be a fruitcake to enter ... one of the fastest applications to reach an accepted test was the woman who claimed she could make people urinate. The sillier the claim, the more JREF seem to like it.

if they wouldn't have covered their legal arses , they would probably already have lost a lot more than one million in court

would you like to be the lawyer who has to make their legal waver ?

e.g. the best detectors miss 99.9% of all solar neutrinos from the sun

well , yes.. and , no
i am no physcist , so cut me some slack here , but as i understand :

if you consider the whole setup to be the detector then yes
it measures 0,01% of the neutrinos passing through the whole system , namely the ones that by chance interact with the medium

if you consider the photomultiplier tubes to be the detectors then no ,
i mean they measure every interaction of the neutrinos with the medium ,
and they can recognise their "signature" , so they measure 100% of the interactions

neutrinos where theoretically predicted , the experiments where built (at great cost) and ther existance was proven

three cheers fo science

the complete opposite of the career path of your tipical paranormal claim

Also most paranormal claims are not from people claiming 'hey look what super power I have with my mind under personal command' (generally these magicians out to make a career) ... the paranormal claim is far more often something is occurring beyond themselves, they witness an odd event or information comes through them rather than is sourced from them. That is most common type of claim and it cannot enter a prize challenge.

If someone is making the claim to be '90% accurate' well the burden of proof is indeed on them and I have no objection to Randi asking them to enter prize ........however most I've met make no promises about getting information correct, they are trying to do something that isn't easy and they know they are often wrong.

some common ground here
though i would estimate the distribution of the various " classes " of believers different

The evidence was overwhelming by the mid/late 1980s, yet more costly non-cure treatments were still being used for another decade. The leading science journal 'Nature' didn't clearly support the claim until around the early/mid 1990s. Incidentally the editor during this period was John Maddox, a CSICOP fellow, friend of Randi, (who also said Sheldrake's book was a candidate for burning) .....so I don't know what point you are trying to make

you are right pharma was addicted to the income from acid inhibitors
but i am not going to discuss that here further
i was only using this story as an illustration to my point that a stunt sometimes has use
so do not seek anything behind any possible connections

[paqart]

Originally Posted by sparky

i would say it is the other way around since history shows all tests were negative they probably are afraid of negative publicity

How many minorities are going to jump at the chance to win a million dollar challenge from the Ku Klux Klan, where all they have to do is prove they are as intelligent as a white man? To the KKK, the challenge may look straightforward, but not to anyone on the other side of the challenge. This isn't an opportunity to win money, it's an opportunity to be shot with a cannonload of prejudice.

This "afraid of negative publicity" business really irritates me because it is as if there isn't already a socially imposed stigma attached to the subject or that negative publicity is harmless. When I was working in Hollywood as an animator and art director, there was plenty of stigma attached to these things, and it did affect my relationships at the office, despite my attempts to avoid conversations on the topic.

Unfortunately, when you have psi as a constant in your life, it is very difficult to avoid discussing the subject, unless you want to just stand stock still like a mute and refuse to answer questions. My own experiences drastically changed the way I look at the world, and that alone caused a great deal of friction with people I knew. Why would I want to magnify that by putting my reputation in the hands of the Dr. Mengele of psi, The Amazing Randi?

"Afraid of negative publicity" is not the right way to phrase this, as if normal people wouldn't mind. Would you like to have some demagogue on the Internet, television, radio, and books telling all the world that you are a fraud and a liar? If you are a fraud and a liar, you would mind, and if you aren't, you would mind even more. Ironically, Randi doesn't even start with the illusion of fair play. He starts by stating unequivocally that all claimants are either crazy, stupid, or dishonest. That's the starting frame. Who would want to stand there? If I told you that I'd like to see you prove that you aren't crazy, stupid, or dishonest, how would you feel about it?

I've been asked, as stated elsewhere on this forum, to go for the challenge, and I've declined. I partly went along with the idea at first (no official application) to please a friend of mine, but let it drop at the first opportunity, like a dead and decaying animal, because the whole idea is repulsive.

That is my reason. Randi's challenge is an insult disguised as a challenge, and my answer is to the malevolence of that insult and not to the diaphanous cloak he wraps it in, of serious investigation and an honest reward.

Some details of my near-interactions with Randi are on my website here:
Twins (dreams)

AP

[OC68]

The initial post on this thread, like so many others by Open Mind, gave me a chuckle. Well done. Anyway, I don't know if this has been post on this thread but I would encourage everyone to read the article at the Daily Grail website called The Myth of the Million Dollar Challenge.
The Myth of the Million Dollar Challenge | TDG - Science, Magick, Myth and History

[paqart]

Originally Posted by OC68

The initial post on this thread, like so many others by Open Mind, gave me a chuckle. Well done. Anyway, I don't know if this has been post on this thread but I would encourage everyone to read the article at the Daily Grail website called The Myth of the Million Dollar Challenge.
The Myth of the Million Dollar Challenge | TDG - Science, Magick, Myth and History

An excellent article. Recommended reading for all skeptics who wonder why non-skeptics don't trust the JREF challenge. Nothing further need be said.

AP