97. Rupert Sheldrake and Richard Wiseman Clash Over Parapsychology Experiments (Podca

[alextsakiris]

Lively debate between biologist Rupert Sheldrake and telepathy skeptic Richard Wiseman reveals wide rift between skeptics and psi proponents

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[paqart]

I just finished listening to the episode and like always enjoyed it. Alex, you do a great job of mediating between opposing parties so that both have an opportunity to clearly state their views. After listening to your podcasts, where you achieve this without noticeable effort, I immediately wonder about all those other programs that descend into red-faced shouting cross-talk. How can anyone put up with the latter type of interview? They are very difficult to understand. The irritation they cause is greater than the information they provide. You on the other hand, somehow allow the information to flow.

I remember reading somewhere that you are, or were, an entrepreneur of some kind. If you hadn't done that, I think you might have had a decent career in some kind of broadcasting, if Skeptiko is any example.

As for the show, the end is quite revealing. Wiseman behaves exactly like a reluctant psi-proponent being asked to try out for the Randi challenge. I understand why some people wouldn't want to go for the Randi challenge, and from that example think similar motives may be behind Wiseman's flaccidity on the subject. He is interested in the subject of paranormal studies, but his preconceptions about how research is conducted are too strong for him to believe it is worth his time.

It may seem reasonable to some that he should put his body where his mouth is and participate, but from his point-of-view, it can't possibly work so it is a waste of his time. This will be borne out in his mind because his own lack of participation affects whether the effort moves forward. When it doesn't, he's just proven he made the right call, except it isn't for the reasons he thinks.

When the three of you discussed the divide between those who have knowledge of psi and those who do not, and asked whether the divide can ever be crossed, the answers were revealing. Sheldrake, the "believer" (of psi) was quite pessimistic, while Wiseman, the "non-believer" was optimistic. Wiseman's optimism looked different in light of his later recalcitrance however, making me wonder how real it is. It could have been interpreted as something that makes logical sense to him, so he is comfortable saying that he is optimistic that an accord of belief will someday be achieved, provided certain evidential standards are met. However, it looks like it conflicts with a deep-seated conclusion that the necessary standard will never be fulfilled. His logic and his conviction conflict, allowing him to simultaneously, with honesty, betray two completely opposite sentiments.

AP

[FastEddieB]

Just listened to the interview portion.

Alex did a good job of moving the dialog forward to this point.

Until I listen to the rest, I just have two comments:

1) I think the analogy Sheldrake puts forth with the multi-universe hypothesis is very, very weak. Quantum theory is a young field, and while observations put the theory itself on solid ground, the "how" is still being debated, if that's even a meaningful question.

Cosmology is inherently speculative. The multi-universe theory is just one "thought experiment" put forth to make sense of the observations we see. Its not the only one, and I don't think its anywhere close to being universally accepted.

And to say there's "absolutely no evidence" for the multi-universe hypothesis is not true - the quantum effects are themselves evidence for the this view of the universe, though there are clearly other possibilities.

Again, any analogy or comparison with "psi-denial" is tenuous at best.

2) Maybe I'm naive, but it seems like a valid telepathy test should be trivially easy to engineer. I can imagine having 10 subjects and a deck of playing cards. Karen, my wife, can sit with the "sender" in one room, shuffle the deck well, and write down the sequence of cards that come up. The "sitter", in another room and under supervision, would write down the card he's "receiving". Maybe a bell audible to both would signal when the next card is being turned.

How hard is this, really?

OK, we can argue about the number and type of cards, and the "hit" rate needed to be significant, but this doesn't seem like rocket science. In the interest of "open-source science", Karen and I would be willing to snag a couple of friends and give this a try. We have access to a video camera. Nine other posters here agreeing to the protocol and we should be in business!

[paqart]

Originally Posted by FastEddieB

How hard is this, really?

OK, we can argue about the number and type of cards, and the "hit" rate needed to be significant, but this doesn't seem like rocket science. In the interest of "open-source science", Karen and I would be willing to snag a couple of friends and give this a try. We have access to a video camera. Nine other posters here agreeing to the protocol and we should be in business!

The reason this isn't trivial is because it isn't the natural way for psi to work. Putting it in a lab immediately changes psi into something different, and weaker, than the phenomena the experiment is designed to test. That said, there are plenty of good studies on telepathy.

AP

[Open Mind]

Great debate.... of course Sheldrake won ... no surprises there (That comment should get the skeptics key rattling )

Originally Posted by FastEddieB

I think the analogy Sheldrake puts forth with the multi-universe hypothesis is very, very weak. Quantum theory is a young field, and while observations put the theory itself on solid ground, the "how" is still being debated, if that's even a meaningful question.

Lab parapsychology is about the same age as quantum mechanics.

Cosmology is inherently speculative. The multi-universe theory is just one "thought experiment" put forth to make sense of the observations we see. Its not the only one, and I don't think its anywhere close to being universally accepted.

I think you should know that Sheldrake is critical of the Many Worlds Intepretation ... his own theory of Morphic Resonance would suggest a more evolutionary universe rather than countless undetectables ones in the MWI.

And to say there's "absolutely no evidence" for the multi-universe hypothesis is not true - the quantum effects are themselves evidence for the this view of the universe, though there are clearly other possibilities.

The point is that the evidence for measurable psi effects is better than the evidence for unmeasurable MWI.

[alextsakiris]

Originally Posted by paqart

Sheldrake, the "believer" (of psi) was quite pessimistic, while Wiseman, the "non-believer" was optimistic. Wiseman's optimism looked different in light of his later recalcitrance however, making me wonder how real it is. It could have been interpreted as something that makes logical sense to him, so he is comfortable saying that he is optimistic of an accord of belief someday being achieved, provided certain evidential standards are met. However, it looks like it conflicts with a deep-seated conclusion that the necessary standard will never be fulfilled. His logic and his conviction conflict, allowing him to simultaneously, with honesty, betray two completely opposite sentiments.

I share your view... it's easy to assume Wiseman is completely gaming the system, but I don't think it's that simple.

[OC68]

Hey Alex, I just went to the Skeptiko website and clicked on the play button and it says "file not found." I'm going to download it so I can listen that way but just thought you might want to know.

[alextsakiris]

Originally Posted by OC68

Hey Alex, I just went to the Skeptiko website and clicked on the play button and it says "file not found." I'm going to download it so I can listen that way but just thought you might want to know.

thx for the heads-up... think it's fixed.

[FastEddieB]

The reason this isn't trivial is because it isn't the natural way for psi to work.

Special Pleading.

How would YOU set up the experiment?

This is exactly what I think Wiseman was dreading when being dragged into "collaboration".

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Lab parapsychology is about the same age as quantum mechanics.

From QM we've gotten solid state electronics, quantum chemistry, lasers, MRI, flash memory, the electron microscope, quantum optics, theoretical geochemistry, superconductivity. Soon we may have quantum cryptography and quantum computers. Quantum biology looms large.

What has psi done for us lately?

~~ Paul