***The Skeptiko Random Stuff Thread***

[Sniffy the Atheist]

Final quote for the day: If some good evidence for life after death were announced, I'd be eager to examine it; but it would have to be real scientific data, not mere anecdote.... Better the hard truth, I say, than the comforting fantasy.- Carl Sagan

Good night

[Sniffy the Atheist]

Religious Nuttery in Pakistan: Pakistan's blasphemy laws have left even judges in fear of their lives | Declan Walsh | Comment is free | The Guardian

Quote of the day: Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

[Roms]

Originally Posted by Sniffy the Atheist

Final quote for the day: If some good evidence for life after death were announced, I'd be eager to examine it; but it would have to be real scientific data, not mere anecdote.... Better the hard truth, I say, than the comforting fantasy.- Carl Sagan

Good night

Well he may be eating his words as we speak...

You do have problems with religion and God Sniffy dont you... yet before you used to tell us about the loving light

For your sake and some of the atheists here, here is a lil discussion that I like

An Atheist Professor of Philosophy speaks to his class on the problem Science has with God, The Almighty.

He asks one of his new students to stand and.....



Prof: So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof: Is God good?
Student: Sure.


Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student: Yes.


Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal
him. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God
didn't.
How is this God good then? Hmm?

(Student is silent.)

Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fellow. Is
God good?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?
Student: No.

Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From...God...

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything.
Correct?
Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?


Student does not answer.


Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these
terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?


Student has no answer.


Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe
the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.

Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.

Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.

Student: No sir. There isn't.


(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events.)


Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat,
mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.

Heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the
absence of it.


(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)


Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as
darkness?


Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

Student: You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light,
flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have
nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness
isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker,
wouldn't you?

Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.
Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.

To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it.

Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?

Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.


Student: Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?


(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize
where the argument is going.)


Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?


(The class is in uproar.)


Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the
Professor's brain?


(The class breaks out into laughter.)


Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's
brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so.
So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable,
demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir.

With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?


(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student, his face unfathomable.)


Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH . That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

[Sniffy the Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roms

Well he may be eating his words as we speak...

You do have problems with religion and God Sniffy dont you... yet before you used to tell us about the loving light

For your sake and some of the atheists here, here is a lil discussion that I like

Thank you Roms, i do believe in the loving light, at least i hope it exists, i really do. LOOOOOOOOOOL that conversation between the professor and the student while being a bit amusing it spends too much time spewing the old fallacy of nobody having seen evolution. And it starts by implying that there is no afterlife. Its a strange argument but thanks for sharing Roms

[Roms]

Originally Posted by Sniffy the Atheist

Thank you Roms, i do believe in the loving light, at least i hope it exists, i really do. LOOOOOOOOOOL that conversation between the professor and the student while being a bit amusing it spends too much time spewing the old fallacy of nobody having seen evolution. And it starts by implying that there is no afterlife. Its a strange argument but thanks for sharing Roms

I dont see the reference no afterlife. Nobody has ever seen macroevolution with their own eyes. What we have is pieces of a puzzle that put together seem to give us a certain picture.

Let me ask you a question. Has it ever occured to you that the loving light that you are referring to somebody may be calling God, Allah, Yahvew, Krishna, Jehova?

[Sniffy the Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roms

I dont see the reference no afterlife. Nobody has ever seen macroevolution with their own eyes. What we have is pieces of a puzzle that put together seem to give us a certain picture.

Let me ask you a question. Has it ever occured to you that the loving light that you are referring to somebody may be calling God, Allah, Yahvew, Krishna, Jehova?

Sorry Roms, the student is obviously ignorant of the beautiful fact of evolution. The student said Science can't explain thought, so its basically a God of the Gaps argument. Faith is strictly not allowed in Science.
Science is purely objective and self correcting, It was science that banished superstition and brought in a more enlightened way of life. It was by shunning faith that we have eradicated diseases and sent people to the moon.
Yes Roms it has occured to me that maybe the light manifests differently to different people, but we must shun primitive mythologies. Allah and all those other figures have no place in the modern world, they are divisive and dangerous, read this and you will understand : Pakistan's blasphemy laws have left even judges in fear of their lives | Declan Walsh | Comment is free | The Guardian

[Roms]

Originally Posted by Sniffy the Atheist

Sorry Roms, the student is obviously ignorant of the beautiful fact of evolution.

Were you there when the big dinosaurs went extinct? or when the common ancestor between big apes and humans was still alive? I dont think so. This is not ignorance. Science is about whats observable, testable, repeatable. I believe in macro evolution which is the proper term yet I have never seen it.

Originally Posted by Sniffy the Atheist

The student said Science can't explain thought, so its basically a God of the Gaps argument.

Mathematics were inveted by mainkind to explain stuff they couldnt explain at first hand. Do you believe in mathematics? I believe you do because this is one of Science foundation.
See you say beautiful fact of evolution yet you will have probably answer no to my first questions so you have a belief of the gap.

Faith is strictly not allowed in Science.

Science is a method so agree on that point.

Science is purely objective and self correcting,

Yep and when it gets muddled into its dogmas it takes as long as the Church as to come out of it and do the self correction. I remember the talk given on TED by a quantum physicist who was explaining to the audience the fact that one could observe the same object in two different places at the same time. Materialism is what is used as a foundation of the explanation of evolution. So if materialism isnt true or partially true what does that make of evolution?

It was science that banished superstition and brought in a more enlightened way of life. It was by shunning faith that we have eradicated diseases and sent people to the moon.

Yes and the fact that technology plays too much of a big role in our society is probably why they didnt run away from the tsunami 8 years ago.

Yes Roms it has occured to me that maybe the light manifests differently to different people, but we must shun primitive mythologies. Allah and all those other figures have no place in the modern world, they are divisive and dangerous, read this and you will understand :

You will never prevent people from being different. So the light that you will see you always perceive it in a different way than I will. I agree that religion brought division and this is mainly because it was used for politic purposes. There is nothing Christian about the Crusade as there is nothing Muslim about conquering Spain. Christ said "He who lives by the sword dies by the sword".

The common ground is love. Rather than focus on the extremists look at places where Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists can live together. They are the majority but we always concentrate on the more vocal and demonstrative ones.

[Sniffy the Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roms

Were you there when the big dinosaurs went extinct? or when the common ancestor between big apes and humans was still alive? I dont think so. This is not ignorance. Science is about whats observable, testable, repeatable. I believe in macro evolution which is the proper term yet I have never seen it.




Mathematics were inveted by mainkind to explain stuff they couldnt explain at first hand. Do you believe in mathematics? I believe you do because this is one of Science foundation.
See you say beautiful fact of evolution yet you will have probably answer no to my first questions so you have a belief of the gap.



Science is a method so agree on that point.



Yep and when it gets muddled into its dogmas it takes as long as the Church as to come out of it and do the self correction. I remember the talk given on TED by a quantum physicist who was explaining to the audience the fact that one could observe the same object in two different places at the same time. Materialism is what is used as a foundation of the explanation of evolution. So if materialism isnt true or partially true what does that make of evolution?




Yes and the fact that technology plays too much of a big role in our society is probably why they didnt run away from the tsunami 8 years ago.



You will never prevent people from being different. So the light that you will see you always perceive it in a different way than I will. I agree that religion brought division and this is mainly because it was used for politic purposes. There is nothing Christian about the Crusade as there is nothing Muslim about

The common ground is love. Rather than focus on the extremists look at places where Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists can live together. They are the majority but we always concentrate on the more vocal and demonstrative ones.

You brought up a lot of points Roms, let me start first about Religion. I believe religion unnecessarily divides people into false groups and creates hatred. There is no such thing as a Muslim or a Buddhist, we are all human beings. Islam and other religions represent primitive ways of looking at the universe. People are pouring acid on each other in the name of Allah, this won't do. Religion is too dangerous. Science is an under appreciated servant of society, people gladly accept the products of science but refuse to adopt its enlightened methods. I don't think Evolution is based on materialism. Evolution is compatible with a belief in an afterlife, but evolution is problematic for religions like Islam and Christianity that insist on the speciallness of human beings. We are not special, we are just another branch in the tree of life. Yes Science is observable, testable and repeatable. The evidence that we share a common ancestor with all life on this planet is very, very, very , very , very strong. The evidence is observable, take a sample of my DNA and take a sample of a chimpanzees DNA and compare it you will find a 98% similarity. Look at the genetic code of all life on planet earth and you will see it is 100% similar. This has been demonstrated again and again. Look at the fossil evidence, look at the genes we share with our Great Ape cousins. All of these are observable, testable ( we can make predictions) and testable.
We are all one big family, every living being is part of us, we must shun primitive beliefs and accept reality as it is.

[Roms]

Originally Posted by Sniffy the Atheist

You brought up a lot of points Roms, let me start first about Religion. I believe religion unnecessarily divides people into false groups and creates hatred. There is no such thing as a Muslim or a Buddhist, we are all human beings.

Simply because people turn a message into a group of people. It boils down to the education of the masses.

Science is an under appreciated servant of society, people gladly accept the products of science but refuse to adopt its enlightened methods.

I dont think people underappreciate science. I think they are very cautious with what scientists say or more guys like Dawkins say.

I don't think Evolution is based on materialism.

So genes and fossils arent material?

We are not special, we are just another branch in the tree of life.

Right and wrong at the same time. We do share a lots of stuff in common with other mammals. However doesnt DNA prove that we are unique? What about building rockets and launching in them into the sky? Doesnt that make us special?

The evidence that we share a common ancestor with all life on this planet is very, very, very , very , very strong. The evidence is observable, take a sample of my DNA and take a sample of a chimpanzees DNA and compare it you will find a 98% similarity.

Yep and you also find 95% similarity with the pig... we still need to find our common ancestor

We are all one big family, every living being is part of us, we must shun primitive beliefs and accept reality as it is.

This sounds very Christian to me

[Sniffy the Atheist]

Originally Posted by Roms

Simply because people turn a message into a group of people. It boils down to the education of the masses.




I dont think people underappreciate science. I think they are very cautious with what scientists say or more guys like Dawkins say.



So genes and fossils arent material?




Right and wrong at the same time. We do share a lots of stuff in common with other mammals. However doesnt DNA prove that we are unique? What about building rockets and launching in them into the sky? Doesnt that make us special?



Yep and you also find 95% similarity with the pig... we still need to find our common ancestor



This sounds very Christian to me

Lot of interesting points Roms, a lot of people think that scientists use evolution just to attack christianity and religion, this is not true, the evidence for evolution was a death blow for religion, yes, but scientists had no intention to do so. Scientists go where the evidence shows. The truth is Richard Dawkins is not saying anything controversial, i always wonder why people are uneasy around him. Even scientists that are not outspoken Atheists generally agree with Richard Dawkins, at least on his science. Yes i agree human beings are unique, we are deeply connected with all living things, not just the great apes. Our most recent common ancestor diverged from the Chimpanzees and Bonnobos about 6 million years ago. Amazing. These facts are so much more inspiring than the stories of religion, don't you agree Roms
Having said that i do hope that there is a spiritual reality beyond the physical.