Nde Q&a

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Oh please, oh please, there just must be something after death. Oh woe is me, I just won't be able to deal with life if that is all there is to being.

~~ Paul

[Lekatt]

Originally Posted by sr332603

That may be one of the least-supported statements I have ever read. In what way could researches rule out hallucinations from reported near death experiences?

Aren’t NDEs hallucinations?

No. Hallucinations are usually illogical, fleeting, bizarre, and/or distorted, whereas the vast majority of NDEs are logical, orderly, clear, and comprehensible. People tend to forget their hallucinations, whereas most NDEs remain vivid for decades. Furthermore, NDEs often lead to profound and permanent transformations in personality, attitudes, beliefs and values, something that is never seen following hallucinations. People looking back on hallucinations typically recognize them as unreal, as fantasies, whereas, people often describe their NDEs as “more real than real.” Further, people who have experienced both hallucinations and an NDE describe them as being quite different.31,32

This quote is on the "International Association of Near Death Studies" web site. An association that has been studying NDEs for over thirty years.


iands.org - Key Facts about Near-Death Experiences

Start reading the material, they are real.

[Lekatt]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Oh please, oh please, there just must be something after death. Oh woe is me, I just won't be able to deal with life if that is all there is to being.

~~ Paul

Have you tried counseling?

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by sr332603

That may be one of the least-supported statements I have ever read. In what way could researches rule out hallucinations from reported near death experiences?

What makes you think hallucination = evidence for materialism? How does the brain create halllucinations?

All NDE debunkers have done is imagined that quoting various hallucinatory experiences increased by various drug effects, oxygen deprivation, air pilot training, spacial distortions, etc. ...is somehow evidence for materialism .... but this is not proper evidence, all of which can also be viewed as interference to the brain filtering of a non-local consciousness

There is currently no materialistic working model of how the brain creates subjective consciousness or even hallucinates. Hallucination doesn't prove 'brain function gone haywire' ... hallucination can also be interpreted as 'not a shared conscious experience'

If many people shared the same dream with others during sleep, whether it matched material world or not .... it would still have to be judged objectively real.

Material realism is partially falsified by quantum mechanics. Perhaps like earphones and goggles can hold people to experience the same computer virtual reality, mismatches in no way proves material realism is the true reference point. Any matching beyond chance expectation is enough to falsify material realism.

[FastEddieB]

Let me chime in here...

...I do not automatically disallow NDE's. Some of the accounts sound pretty interesting.

But the idea of having experiences NEAR death is a long, long way from what I'd call the "Holy Grail" of experiences - AFTER Death Experiences.

Billions and billions of people have died and have had their brains cease functioning. I've yet to see any reliable interactions with these prior "consciousnesses" to imply that they still exist.

That would be cool! I'd like to stick around after my death.

But where is everybody? It should be getting pretty crowded by now!

[FastEddieB]

...all of which can also be viewed as interference to the brain filtering of a non-local consciousness

Wow! Non-local consciousness!!!

If non-local, then where do you suppose it is?

Neptune?

Alpha Centauri?

Another Dimension/Reality?

The Matrix?

I mean, really, if not in the brain, where do you think it exists? You must have some theory.

[Lekatt]

Originally Posted by FastEddieB

Wow! Non-local consciousness!!!

If non-local, then where do you suppose it is?

Neptune?

Alpha Centauri?

Another Dimension/Reality?

The Matrix?

I mean, really, if not in the brain, where do you think it exists? You must have some theory.

I think you need an introduction to the spiritual world or dimension. You are first spirit and then spirit inhabiting a physical body. Many near death experiencers talk to their deceased relatives during their experience, it is very common. The spirit dimension is without space and time, it exists everywhere including where you are. Read some near death experiences and you will begin to understand if you really want to understand. We humans are spiritual and will live after the death of our bodies. It is fact with lots of real evidence for it. Why not feel good about it, materialism has never produced any long-lived joy and happiness for anyone.

[sr332603]

Originally Posted by Lekatt

I think you need an introduction to the spiritual world or dimension. You are first spirit and then spirit inhabiting a physical body. Many near death experiencers talk to their deceased relatives during their experience, it is very common. The spirit dimension is without space and time, it exists everywhere including where you are. Read some near death experiences and you will begin to understand if you really want to understand. We humans are spiritual and will live after the death of our bodies. It is fact with lots of real evidence for it. Why not feel good about it, materialism has never produced any long-lived joy and happiness for anyone.

I do not need an introduction to Lekatt's made up world.

Lekatt is an example of someone who does not care to even consider his viewpoint from a skeptical perspective. He boldly asserts that we are spiritual beings. That we exist everywhere. That we can contact deceased relatives. The specific qualities of the "spirit dimension." And yet he has no positive evidence that any such thing exists.

The best explanation for the world in which we live and our physical and mental make-up is a natural explanation. If our bodies are simply conduits, explain why they possess all of the components that they posses, which seem to perform all of the tasks necessary to produce consciousness? Why would we need brains, if our spirits could do the work? Why have physical bodies at all? What evidence are you using to claim that we have spirits apart from NDE accounts, which are perfectly explained through classic neurology?

All of this from accounts of near death experiences? Interesting that most neurologists are not troubled by the same accounts that lead Lekatt to such confident and extreme conclusions. Is that because Lekatt is much smarter than most neurologists and he has more training in neurology, or is it because neurologists have a materialistic explanation that fits much nicer without the need to invoke made up fantasies?

It seems as if Lekatt is simply scared to die, or to lose a loved one to death. I do not mock this - I am scared to die as well, and I have lost loved ones that were very dear to me. I would give literally anything to see them again and would be beyond happy to learn that Lekatt's fantasies are a reality.

But that does not mean that I will see them again. There is a large difference between what we want to exist and what actually exists.

[Lekatt]

Originally Posted by sr332603

I do not need an introduction to Lekatt's made up world.

Lekatt is an example of someone who does not care to even consider his viewpoint from a skeptical perspective. He boldly asserts that we are spiritual beings. That we exist everywhere. That we can contact deceased relatives. The specific qualities of the "spirit dimension." And yet he has no positive evidence that any such thing exists.

The best explanation for the world in which we live and our physical and mental make-up is a natural explanation. If our bodies are simply conduits, explain why they possess all of the components that they posses, which seem to perform all of the tasks necessary to produce consciousness? Why would we need brains, if our spirits could do the work? Why have physical bodies at all? What evidence are you using to claim that we have spirits apart from NDE accounts, which are perfectly explained through classic neurology?

All of this from accounts of near death experiences? Interesting that most neurologists are not troubled by the same accounts that lead Lekatt to such confident and extreme conclusions. Is that because Lekatt is much smarter than most neurologists and he has more training in neurology, or is it because neurologists have a materialistic explanation that fits much nicer without the need to invoke made up fantasies?

It seems as if Lekatt is simply scared to die, or to lose a loved one to death. I do not mock this - I am scared to die as well, and I have lost loved ones that were very dear to me. I would give literally anything to see them again and would be beyond happy to learn that Lekatt's fantasies are a reality.

But that does not mean that I will see them again. There is a large difference between what we want to exist and what actually exists.

I have been debating skeptics for a long time, long enough to know when they start making the debate personal they have nothing left in the way of a debate to say.

Now, I have provided a lot of evidence to back my position and I have seen no evidence at all to back yours. How about showing some evidence?

I read the science journals carefully and all the material about how scientists believe the brain produces consciousness. I know a lot about it from the the skeptical point of view. The trouble is that science has no physical evidence to back up what they believe. It is all opinion and theory. Now if you believe I am wrong please show me the "beef." I would appreciate it greatly.

[hoggworks]

Originally Posted by Lekatt

The trouble is that science has no physical evidence to back up what they believe. It is all opinion and theory. Now if you believe I am wrong please show me the "beef." I would appreciate it greatly.

Lekatt,

I was looking at the links (such as I could; some were broken, such as the facts about NDEs link), and while much of your argument seems to rest on the veracity of testimony given by people whose brains are nearly nonfunctional, which is weird at best (would you assume someone on a large amount of LSD to be an accurate witness of much of anything?), you do also point to specific recountings by doctors of the fantastical information they gave.

I looked at the first video, with the woman who had I believe a large tumor in her brain that they were taking out. She "knew" things about the operating procedure that she ought not have. She "saw" herself above her body, watching it. Sounds like pretty good evidence.

Rather, it sounds like pretty good evidence if you assume that she wasn't imagining it all, or that she wasn't actually still able to perceive things in the room traditionally. She HEARD the bone saw. Now, she expressed surprised that it looked like a toothbrush and not a saw to cut wood with, but she also specifically described it as sounding like something from a dentist's office. If you look at a dentist's office, you might notice that their drills look like toothbrushes.

But what of her floating above herself? Well, when I dream, I have visions of things that aren't happening; they're called dreams. If I'm awake and I hear a weird sound, I can generate a picture of what that object is, and can even view it from a strange angle, feet above the ground. Does this mean that I'm having an out of body experience every time I'm imagining anything?

Even if the spirit were wandering around the room, how do you explain the memories getting back into her brain? If I'm recording a tv show, and then unplug the VCR, the recording stops. When I plug said VCR back in and resume recording, there's going to be a gap; the VCR doesn't go backward through time to record the entirety of the show. To put another way, if the brain is the recorder of memory (and since memories can be destroyed via brain damage, that seems a reasonable proposition), how can it record anything when it's off?

It certainly could be that NDEs represent a continuation of the "spirit," whatever the hell that's meant to be other than wish fulfillment, but none of the NDE stories I've seen offer evidence of said continuation.