I just had an irritating conversation with an evangelist

[paqart]

An hour ago I was just starting to work on the second of two presentations I will give at the International Association for the Study of Dreams conference in the Netherlands. I heard the doorbell ring downstairs, so I hustled down two flights of stairs and answered the door. It was G, a woman traveling door to door to discuss God. I don't mind discussing God in some circumstances, but standing there in my bare feet with icy wind creeping up my toes while I was trying to get some work done was not ideal.

She wanted to give me a copy of Watchtower magazine, which is perfectly fine with me because my wife sometimes reads them, but as she went on about things that sounded not only dogmatic but wrong, I pointed out that I had my own source for this kind of information. At the time she had been saying how God connects to us through the church (her church) and reading "his word" (their dogma). So I showed her my book. A bit cheeky, but I thought that would solve my need to get back to typing upstairs. When she saw the word "Psychic" on the cover, she had to remark on it. As soon as she started talking, I knew the Demons, Hellfire, and Satan Express was headed my way.

G whipped out a different copy of Watchtower headlined "Occultisme" ("Occultism" in Dutch). I tried explaining to her that "Occultism" and "psychic" aren't necessarily the same thing, and that religion is based on what we would now call psychic or paranormal events. However, she now had to defend herself against a person who wasn't just interested in "occultisme" (which I'm not by the way) but who had written a book about it (again, I didn't write about occultism). So at the same time as she wanted to show me the light to change my ways, she was simultaneously concerned about defending herself from my ideas. These, she spared no energy describing as inspired by Satan to deceive me and everyone else. During all this, as ungracious as it was for me to notice, I was wishing she would wipe off the lipstick she had all over her teeth. Listening to her leap from "psychic" to "Occultisme" to "Satan" to me while looking at her teeth and freezing at the front door was pretty uncomfortable.

What will be next? Is it equally possible that she will now shun our house in the future or will instead bring crusaders to the door? I hope she shuns us, but have a feeling that she now has a duty to annoy my family.

And all I had to do was not show her my book. The fact is that she has come by several times over the past few years to talk to my wife. My wife tolerates the visits but is not impressed by this woman's church. She wishes they would stop coming by, but doesn't know how to say it nicely. I figured showing my book would do the trick, but I obviously wasn't thinking strategically or I would have realized that I'd just given red meat to a hungry dog.

I mention this here because it is fascinating to me that there are skeptics who don't look at evidence and disbelieve, and there are believers who don't look at evidence and believe. Both are hostile to the group in the middle who look at the evidence and believe and who do not interpret the data as frivolous or evil.

AP

[David Bailey]

I think you have hit on a big problem in this area - that numbers of people 'know' what the answer is, but they all 'know' different things, which results in futile arguments like the one you have just had!

To me, this is part of the puzzle of the subject!

David

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I don't bother trying to talk to them.

~~ Paul

[paqart]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I don't bother trying to talk to them.

~~ Paul

One of the unfortunate aspects of the knowledge I have from my psi experiences is that I am very interested in religious subjects now, but from a perspective that is not amenable to many people. I am inclined to at least be polite in these situations, though in this case I went a bit farther, because I thought I had a way to stop the visits.

AP

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by paqart

One of the unfortunate aspects of the knowledge I have from my psi experiences is that I am very interested in religious subjects now, but from a perspective that is not amenable to many people. I am inclined to at least be polite in these situations, though in this case I went a bit farther, because I thought I had a way to stop the visits.

AP

The problem is that you know, and she knows, but you both 'know' different things! I'd say that happens a lot in this field - your knowledge may not be the same as someone else's!

It is a real problem with subjective knowledge.

David

[Limbo]

paqart...ask her God if you can send her a dream that would open her eyes.

[paqart]

Originally Posted by Limbo

paqart...ask her God if you can send her a dream that would open her eyes.

Heh. What I wanted to point out is that if Satan is so tricky, then imagine all the false churches he could get going...

However, that isn't good manners. Your suggestion probably is the better option.

AP

[Weedar]

Originally Posted by paqart

An hour ago I was just starting to work on the second of two presentations I will give at the International Association for the Study of Dreams conference in the Netherlands. I heard the doorbell ring downstairs, so I hustled down two flights of stairs and answered the door. It was G, a woman traveling door to door to discuss God. I don't mind discussing God in some circumstances, but standing there in my bare feet with icy wind creeping up my toes while I was trying to get some work done was not ideal.

She wanted to give me a copy of Watchtower magazine, which is perfectly fine with me because my wife sometimes reads them, but as she went on about things that sounded not only dogmatic but wrong, I pointed out that I had my own source for this kind of information. At the time she had been saying how God connects to us through the church (her church) and reading "his word" (their dogma). So I showed her my book. A bit cheeky, but I thought that would solve my need to get back to typing upstairs. When she saw the word "Psychic" on the cover, she had to remark on it. As soon as she started talking, I knew the Demons, Hellfire, and Satan Express was headed my way.

G whipped out a different copy of Watchtower headlined "Occultisme" ("Occultism" in Dutch). I tried explaining to her that "Occultism" and "psychic" aren't necessarily the same thing, and that religion is based on what we would now call psychic or paranormal events. However, she now had to defend herself against a person who wasn't just interested in "occultisme" (which I'm not by the way) but who had written a book about it (again, I didn't write about occultism). So at the same time as she wanted to show me the light to change my ways, she was simultaneously concerned about defending herself from my ideas. These, she spared no energy describing as inspired by Satan to deceive me and everyone else. During all this, as ungracious as it was for me to notice, I was wishing she would wipe off the lipstick she had all over her teeth. Listening to her leap from "psychic" to "Occultisme" to "Satan" to me while looking at her teeth and freezing at the front door was pretty uncomfortable.

What will be next? Is it equally possible that she will now shun our house in the future or will instead bring crusaders to the door? I hope she shuns us, but have a feeling that she now has a duty to annoy my family.

And all I had to do was not show her my book. The fact is that she has come by several times over the past few years to talk to my wife. My wife tolerates the visits but is not impressed by this woman's church. She wishes they would stop coming by, but doesn't know how to say it nicely. I figured showing my book would do the trick, but I obviously wasn't thinking strategically or I would have realized that I'd just given red meat to a hungry dog.

I mention this here because it is fascinating to me that there are skeptics who don't look at evidence and disbelieve, and there are believers who don't look at evidence and believe. Both are hostile to the group in the middle who look at the evidence and believe and who do not interpret the data as frivolous or evil.

AP

It is not a church (they do not even refer to themselves as such). It is a closed cult that believes that Jehovah God soon will kill 99% of mankind (only Jehovah's Witnesses will be allowed to live) in Harmageddon. The good news they preach is that you get to live in "paradise" on earth (away from God and heaven), mourning all your dead relatives that were not JWs and their children. Some of their doctrines include:

- A denial of any type of "soul" or "spirit" that survives death. You are a purely biological creature. NDEs are demonic deceptions.
- Young earth creationism and denial of evolution.
- A global flood
- Extreme authoritarianism. You MUST believe what the watchtower teaches or be disfellowshipped. But they do NOT believe that the watchtower is infallible. In the past this meant that doctors that were JWs had to believe that your heart and kidneys have cognitive functions (because they used to teach that).
- Disfellowshipping means that you will be shunned by other JWs, they are not allowed even to speak to you and you will die in Harmageddon (and perish forever).
- It is forbidden to read "apostate" litterature.
- It is forbidden to celebrate your birthday
- It is forbidden to celebrate Christmas
- It is forbidden to celebrate Easter
- It is forbidden to celebrate your national day
- It is forbidden to sing the national anthem or salute the flag. This is because ALL ORGANISATIONS that are not the watchtower are part of Satan's great organisation.
- Is is forbidden to to take part in military or civil service. Not because they are pacifists (one day they'll help Jehovah to kill you), but because all governments are part of Satan's organization.
- It is forbidden to eat blood or receive blood transfusions. Parents must let their children die rather than allow them to receive blood.
- Extreme biblical fundamentalism, incompatible with the modern scientific study of the bible. Their view of the bible cannot possibly be true.'
- Only 144 000 people (the leaders of the Watchtower) will go to heaven to rule over the class of people who end up on earth.
- It is ok to lie to people who criticize them or to put Jehovahs organisation in a better light. They could say that all I have written is a pack of lies. This is called "theocratic warfare" and is sanctioned by Jehovah God.

Etc... etc...

[Sandy B]

There are a lot of scary churches out there.

I was listening to a paranormal themed podcast lately that had the most offensive host. The guy was an extreme fundamentalist christian, homophobic, anti-science, teabagger. He said things like "Science was all just best-guessing". I typed in "religion is all just making stuff up" on the chat room feed to annoy him. I'm sure he thinks Canada is a country on his list of those he feels needs to be invaded and conquered for our oil now.

Somehow, i don't quite get the notion that America is full of obese gas guzzling car whores with nothing better to do that drive around to every McDOnalds they can. For starters, obese people can't even FIT in cars let alone drive them.

No, America is not scouring the earth to find oil and drain it dry in a desperate attempt to feed starving fat people. Sorry.

As for the JWs, i once found them outside my door as i came home with some KFC. I offered them some but they weren't hungry.

What a bunch of psychologically inept people they are! THere should be JW schools and universities where people can get a degree in being a JW before they are allowed to inflict their garbage on the rest of the world. Just saying.