Simulating a brain on a computer

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I very much doubt the brain relies on instantaneous processing, especially since it can't involve information transfer. ~~ Paul

Paul, since telepathy still seems to occur in electromagnetically shielded labs and the generally consensus is that distance doesn't any much difference in telepathy experiments, it is not likely to be a local signal.

Therefore, in theory, when you accept telepathy, you are pretty much forced to view psi as more than purely a local brain function that sends local signals?

To defend materialism (i.e. an evolutionary direction ... matter creates mind) you would have to view the brain as what? A quantum computer? However you are arguing such a type of materialism can never explain telepathy because local to no-local transfer of information cannot occur?

If the mind is non-local (to our physical senses) and the brain is the local filter of an non-local mind, do these theoretical problems increase or diminsh?

If telepathy is real whether materialism (matter -> mind) or an alternative (that views matter as less fundamental) ..... something in physics probably needs modified.

[David Bailey]

Open Mind,

I am wondering if your Feynman quote has got a little distorted. As I understand it, a classical computer can simulate a quantum one, but the execution time goes up exponentially as the number of qubits increase.

To me, perhaps the main lesson here is that QM is so damn weird that it no longer seems that much more weird to include some theoretical ingredient that would be Ψ-friendly. Neoroscience/AI people often seem naive because they ignore real physics and pretend the world is classical. Of course, if pressed, they would claim that they are merely assuming the classical limit - for perfectly justifiable reasons! Even so, I suspect that if they really took on board the weirdness of QM, and the fact that it seems pretty clear that it will never resolve into a 'sensible' theory again, they might open their minds a little.

David

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Paul, since telepathy still seems to occur in electromagnetically shielded labs and the generally consensus is that distance doesn't any much difference in telepathy experiments, it is not likely to be a local signal.

Somebody timed some experiments and noted that the information transfer occurs faster than the speed of light? Which subjects are far enough away to make this claim?

Therefore, in theory, when you accept telepathy, you are pretty much forced to view psi as more than purely a local brain function that sends local signals?

Then entanglement doesn't help, because there doesn't appear to be any way to transfer information. Not to mention the problem is entangling the subjects and objects to begin with.

To defend materialism (i.e. an evolutionary direction ... matter creates mind) you would have to view the brain as what? A quantum computer? However you are arguing such a type of materialism can never explain telepathy because local to no-local transfer of information cannot occur?

It doesn't appear to be possible to transfer information.

If the mind is non-local (to our physical senses) and the brain is the local filter of an non-local mind, do these theoretical problems increase or diminsh?

Only if you postulate that the metamind is supernatural, in which case all bets are off.

~~ Paul

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Open Mind,

I am wondering if your Feynman quote has got a little distorted. As I understand it, a classical computer can simulate a quantum one, but the execution time goes up exponentially as the number of qubits increase.

David, perhaps my fault for using the term 'quantum computer' when asking Paul what sort of computer could mimic telepathy.

The quote is from theoretical nuclear physicist Amit Goswami's book 'The self aware universe' .... the quote doesn't actually mention a quantum computer .... '.... A classical computer, notes Feynman, can never simulate nonlocality ....' one wonders why Feynman used the term 'classical' at all (if he did in the original source). The passage gives a reference to 'Feynman 1982' in the end notes.

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Somebody timed some experiments and noted that the information transfer occurs faster than the speed of light? Which subjects are far enough away to make this claim?

Paul, 'instantaneous' telepathy is not necessarily the same as 'faster than the speed of light ' ... strong signalling into the past would possibly wreck causality, freewill or determinism. Having said that .....

Timing has indeed been measured in some parapsychology experiments, such as in 'presentiment' experiments where the person responds before trigger has been selected.

[David Bailey]

Let's face it, unless ESP experiments were carries out on the Apollo missions, we don't actually know if ESP is limited by the speed of light - and even then it would be pretty difficult with only about 1.3 seconds delay in each direction.

However, since ESP seems to blur into precognition, my guess is that ESP is not limited by c.

David

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Timing has indeed been measured in some parapsychology experiments, such as in 'presentiment' experiments where the person responds before trigger has been selected.

That's not "faster than the speed of light." That's "violates the laws of physics as we know them." Once the laws are violated, it's hazardous to guess exactly how.

~~ Paul

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

That's not "faster than the speed of light." That's "violates the laws of physics as we know them." Once the laws are violated, it's hazardous to guess exactly how.

~~ Paul

Both results violate the current laws of physics - in fact a Lorenz transformation can transform FTL into something that happens before its cause!

However, I am comfortable with that because I don't believe the existence consciousness is compatible with the existing laws of physics!

David

[Open Mind]

Testing nonlocal observation as a source of intuitive knowledge - Dean Radin, Institute of Noetic Sciences

This study explored the hypothesis that in some cases intuitive knowledge arises from perceptions that are not mediated through the ordinary senses. The possibility of detecting such nonlocal observation was investigated in a pilot test based on the effects of observation on a quantum system. Participants were asked to imagine that they could intuitively perceive a low-intensity laser beam in a distant Michelson interferometer. If such observation were possible, it would theoretically perturb the photons' quantum wave functions and change the pattern of light produced by the interferometer. The optical apparatus was located inside a light-tight, double-steel walled, shielded chamber. Participants sat quietly outside the chamber with eyes closed. The light patterns were recorded by a cooled digital camera once per second, and average illumination levels of these images were compared in counterbalanced mental blocking versus nonblocking conditions. By design, perturbation would produce a lower overall level of illumination, which was predicted to occur during the blocking condition. Based on a series of planned experimental sessions, the outcome was in accordance with the prediction (z = -2.82; P = .002). This result was primarily due to nine sessions involving experienced meditators (combined z = -4.28; P = 9.4 x 10(-6)); the other nine sessions with nonmeditators were not significant (combined z = 0.29; P = .61). The same experimental protocol run immediately after 15 of these test sessions, but with no one present, revealed no hardware or protocol artifacts that might have accounted for these results (combined control z = 1.50; P = .93). Conventional explanations for these results were considered and judged to be implausible. This pilot study suggests the presence of a nonlocal perturbation effect that is consistent with traditional concepts of intuition as a direct means of gaining knowledge about the world, and with the predicted effects of observation on a quantum system.

Testing nonlocal observation as a source of intuit...[Explore (NY). 2008 Jan-Feb] - PubMed Result

I am surprised parapsychology has not done more experiments like this one in past, hopefully more do so now.