Interview With Steven Novella of Skeptics Guide

[ktb973]

thanks open

[Venom]

I said it on the SGU threat, but I think it was a really good episode.

My feeling is that the skeptical mouvement must go "back to basics" wich are: ufology, cryptozoology and parapsychology.

And this episode was focus on how to interpret de parapsychological litterature, so I was really happy with that.

[mszlazak]

This episode really shows that Alex is out of his element. Alex tried argument A to support psi, skeptic-bias, or one of his other gripes and Steve "shoots A down". Then Alex switches to argument B and Steve again "shoots B down." And so it goes for the rest of the show until Alex is left talking about the need to collaborate on some new study he's cooking up. Parapsychologists were probably in tears after this pathetic display.

[David Bailey]

Mszlazak,

This shows just how differently two brains can interpret identical data! I thought Alex was definitely winning all the way (I am not sure hat is quite the right way to approach these problems, however).

Steve and his colleagues were waffling about obscure statistical effects while discussing Sheldrake's work with dogs. This allowed Alex to point out the huge difference - 4% vs 26% (if memory serves me right) and their response was to simply ask how anybody could possibly believe in psychic dogs - in a fairly scornful way! To me, that was extremely revealing. It would be interesting to know how regular listeners to that show rated their performance.

I assume that both of us would like to resolve the question as to whether ψ exists in some sort of definitive way - at least to our own satisfaction. If you take the example of anticipatory dogs, that will only be done by revealing an alternative mechanism by which this happens - dog and cat owners have known about this phenomenon for ages, the question is not if it happens, but how. Steve guessing that maybe a dog can identify the owner's car at a distance of 1 kilometre will not cut it - he would have to demonstrate that that explanation works - say using taxis.

David

[DysonSphere]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Just don't forget to control for the fact that the more guesses a person makes, the more correct guesses there will be. Confirmation bias does the rest.

~~ Paul

I'm aware of confirmation bias and subjective validation. Thats the point. The episodes I'm talking about was not guess work or a reading but a sudden knowing or inspiration to do something that worked out.

I just want to make it clear that I don't think anyone should count anecdotes (unless documented appropriately) as evidence. My point is, in context of all the psi experiences people have the evidence is more meaningful.

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I've had spiritual experiences, especially while I was being trained as a teach of Transcendental Meditation and meditating long hours each day. I see no reason to take such experiences as anything more than nice feelings I had while meditating too much.

There is no reason to rule the validity of those experiences either...

The transcendent aspect of human experience is something that shouldn't be ignored, in my humble 'pinion'.

Originally Posted by mszlazak

"This episode really shows that Alex is out of his element. Alex tried argument A to support psi, skeptic-bias, or one of his other gripes and Steve "shoots A down". Then Alex switches to argument B and Steve again "shoots B down."

That wasn't my impression at all. This is a priceless example of pseudo-skeptical bias.

[David Bailey]

Paul,

I would be interested to hear about your experiences while meditating.

It might also be interesting to discuss why - in a Darwinian sense - the brain finds it useful to generate these phenomena.

David

[Mike]

Paul,

Here is a link regarding a book I recently enjoyed reading about the TM movement. The author was heavily involved in the movement in the United States in its early years, and more recently returned to check out what it is like today.

Amazon.com: The Maharishi Effect: A Personal Journey Through the Movement That Transformed American Spirituality: Books: Geoff Gilpin

[Venom]

Originally Posted by DysonSphere

There is no reason to rule the validity of those experiences either...

Except that they are purrely subjective?

Well, anyway, I don't understand what you mean by "validity" in this context. It's obvious that you can have some peak experience during meditation. No doubt about that. But nothing supranatural or even dualist in this either. It's just the brain generating those experience after beeing in a meditative state (or relaxing state) during a while.

So what's your point?

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Venom

Except that they are purrely subjective?

Objectivity is the product of agreement of subjectivities This was certainly the viewpoint of many philosophers of science, including Sir Arthur Eddington (the astrophysicist who presented the 1919 solar eclipse information turning Einstein's subjective general relativity theory into a shared more objective interpretation)

Venom, you need to consider the possibility that if telepathy exists, even to the weakest of degrees, the 'subjective' is being shared not via sensory clues. As indicated by the dream telepathy experiments, if one can influence to any extent the dream of another, the definitions of 'subjective' and 'objective' begin to blur. What is perhaps holding the mind to an objectivity is an agreed interpretation of physical matter via our physical senses and measurement, yet we know matter is made of nothing solid.

Matter, a common reference point of measurement, is merely holding subjectivities into an objectivity IMHO

But nothing supranatural or even dualist in this either. It's just the brain generating those experience after beeing in a meditative state (or relaxing state) during a while.

Why should the brain do that in a meditative state? What evolutionary advantages/steps lead to the brain creating hallucinations that have no close resemblance to a physical model of reality? Go to my fun thread 'Challenge to debunkers : Can you prove hallucinations are generated in the brain?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

I would be interested to hear about your experiences while meditating.

The nicest experience I had while meditating was realizing that even if everyone on the Earth disappeared, I would still have the stars to keep me company. Nice material for a poem.

It might also be interesting to discuss why - in a Darwinian sense - the brain finds it useful to generate these phenomena.

No idea, but they may simply be a harmless byproduct of brain function. No real reason why we ought to be able to do calculus, either.

Originally Posted by Mike

Here is a link regarding a book I recently enjoyed reading about the TM movement. The author was heavily involved in the movement in the United States in its early years, and more recently returned to check out what it is like today.

Sounds like a fun read, so I ordered it. I ducked out of the TM movement when they announced the sidhi program. I really didn't think I was going to learn to fly or talk to animals.

~~ Paul