Morality, Idealism and Free Will

[platobird]

Morality, Idealism and free will,

I personally am trying to make one last leap away from materialism and I must say it's turning into a very challenging chasm to cross.

If you've come to accept that perception is critical to reality, (and have also concluded that MWI of QM is correct) , then is there any logic or morality in angrily debating another person on what the ultimate construct of reality is?

For example ...If a person chooses, in this world, in this life, in this body, to use the freewill of their own consciousness to fervently experiencing a Christian life, with all the paraphernalia that that entails why would you consider it your duty to break their reality tunnel? Another example would be someone who is firmly grounded in Scientific Materialism and are experiencing the full joys and ramifications of that reality. Should we feel honorable in scorning their beliefs either?

What would make your or my perspective THE perspective and worthy of an angry debate. Must we insist on one reality, or as Alex likes to say, a consensus reality? Was Wallace or Darwin or Lamarck right for that matter? Why are we soo sure that there is this ONE definitive past? If time is an mental construct, are historical records facts at all? Or are they also variable? Aren't we just falling into the same abyss that we are trying to escape from!

I do enjoy discussing and debating and I can feel my emotions churning for a good spat at times. So perhaps this growing war of diverse viewpoints is just another experience that consciousness is exploring?

God this really makes my head hurt...ha-ha.

[EthanT]

I'm assuming by MWI of QM, you mean the Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics.

I personally view that idea, along with the multiverse idea, as the result of obstinately sticking to a paradigm that is beginning to show signs of breaking down. In this case, the paradigm in question is materialism/reductionism.

MWI is a way of getting rid of the probablisitic nature of QM, while still maintaining the same fundamental materialistic worldview, imho.

[platobird]

I guess it would be an easier question to ask yourself if consciousness is restricted to one timeline . Its just that IMO its likely not. If idealism is right, (that's a big if in some peoples minds), why would consciousness put such limitations upon itself. Perhaps it would as it 'developed'.... but not permanently.

[EthanT]

Originally Posted by platobird

I guess it would be an easier question to ask yourself if consciousness is restricted to one timeline . Its just that IMO its likely not. If idealism is right, (that's a big if in some peoples minds), why would consciousness put such limitations upon itself. Perhaps it would as it 'developed'.... but not permanently.

Are you talking about timelines tha run in parallel, or in series?

The idea of the "recycling" Universe in Hinduism, is roughly the idea of timelines that run in series.

I guess I would be more amenable to an idea along those lines.

Parallel timelines sound, well ... a little too out there for me, especially if its the same consciousness experiencing them (which is not what MWI proposes, anyhow).

I have a hard enough time managing one schedule, lol

[platobird]

I try to link up advances in Science to what I've learned 'elsewhere'. So the MWI is about as close as science has come to my 'understanding' of how reality is constructed.

I feel there is no limitations OR divisions to Consciousness! Whether timelines running parallely or sequentially, would just be self inflicted confinement consciousness has put upon itself. So looking at the complete picture, consciousness is more like air that intermingles...no real divisions at all.

So then why argue with yourself..basically?

The only logical reason you would do that, is if you felt that your perspective was right and theirs was wrong. Their perception would be flawed in your eyes. However are you not just trying to deny them the freewill to create whatever they have chosen to create?

Others would say that science has led us astray and are stifling our advancement as a culture. They think that it is our duty to 'fight' back against how science has manipulated our reality.

Well no... I don't think we have anyone to blame but ourselves as individuals. I believe life is but a mirror. So if you're debating your reflection and yelling at it to change, you've lost your marbles. The only way to change the reflection is to change yourself. Right?

Of course that doesn't mean we should isolate all the different world views, as nothing would ever change if we did that. Consciousness is an ever changing interaction of focuses. Interaction is one thing, blame, condescension, anger, ridicule, is another. Reality is a preference, not a definitive stance.

Hard to put into words ...do you get what I'm trying to say.

[EthanT]

Hi platobird,

I think I understand where you are coming from. It just that it sounds like you're saying reality has no objectivity to it? Is that true?

I agree, to some extent, with what you say about forcing our perceptions and ideas on other folks, but I look at it a bit differently.

I think everything serves a purpose. We struggle with the worldviews we hold for a reason and that struggle and eventual overcoming provides a lesson learned, and is valuable.

In addition, I think all worldviews ultimately come up short. Since our minds cannot fully fathom reality, we are all "wrong" to some extent, and all "right" to some extent. It's just a matter of degrees.

It's basically an evolution of consciousness that is proceeding exactly the way it needs to. It's a big cosmic drama.

But, ultimately, in my view, there is objective truth in the end. Nor do this view require multiple time lines.

I guess if you adpot the MWI as truth though, one could then begin to argue that there is, at the very least, a lesser degree of objectivity, since MWI basically says anything that can happen, does happen. If you have infinite degrees of freedom amongst infinite Universes, each with its own thread of reality, then yeah it would become hard to argue what is right, or wrong, because whatever view you adopt in this Universe, no matter how right it is here, just pop over into another one, and suddenly it is wrong. Once again though, I think this is taking a lot of leeway with what MWI is saying. And, MWI is not exactly the favored interpretation of QM, although it has gained a little ground recently. It's also untestable, as far as we know.

I just personally don't buy into any of that.

[platobird]

Thanks for your great reply! Lot's of unanswered questions for sure.

I see reality more like a projection much like a movie. With an infinite amount of frames available to connect together into cohesive story lines. Just like in a movie it's easy to cut and splice scenes from anyplace along the film, and at any time. One could even make a multitude of movies, with completely different outcomes especially if every possible variable exists and lies in pieces ready to be connected.

This analogy also takes care of the good and evil aspects of reality. If the actors are merely performing their roles and are able to take off their costumes and walk away and the end of the day....then no 'real' harm done. Yet what a marvelous experience! To be soooo absorbed in your role that you've felt every pain and every joy to it's utmost, yet can walk away none the worse for wear. In fact, what great knowledge you've acquired through the process. Now that argues against my initial question doesn't it?...haha. Maybe Alex fuming and Coyne yelling is an experience worthy of a good movie.

Ah well ...all speculation. I do realize the MWI does not predict this interweaving of universes. But science don't know SQUAT yet...in my humble opinion.

Thanks again...ta.

[EthanT]

Originally Posted by platobird

This analogy also takes care of the good and evil aspects of reality. If the actors are merely performing their roles and are able to take off their costumes and walk away and the end of the day....then no 'real' harm done. Yet what a marvelous experience! To be soooo absorbed in your role that you've felt every pain and every joy to it's utmost, yet can walk away none the worse for wear. In fact, what great knowledge you've acquired through the process.

I think this is kinda similar, but I like the Indian idea that the Universe is God "at play", and that we are all incarnations of God ( to greater and lesser degrees)

Basically, the "One who split into Many" and became the reality we perceive. We are each a "spark" of God, that has become so absorbed into playing our role, that we have forgotten who we really are. Sorta like a stage actor that gets so absorbed into a role, he starts to become the role.

Some quotes to further illustrate the point:

Sri Aurobindo: "What then was the commencement of the whole matter? Existence that multiplied itself for sheer delight of being and plunged into numberless trillions of forms so that it might find itself innumerably."

Sri Aurobindo: "The Atheist is God playing at hide and seek with Himself; but is the Theist any other? Well, perhaps; for he has seen the shadow of God and clutched at it."

Swami Vivekenanda: "All is the Self or Brahman. The saint, the sinner, the lamb, the tiger, even the murderer, as far as they have any reality, can be nothing else, because there is nothing else."

Anyhow, I think this all sorta relates to what you said in quotes above, at least a little bit