Rupert Sheldrake Lecture: The Science Delusion

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Why does the placebo effect require consciousness at all? Certain pleasant stimuli cause my brain to alter my behavior and/or internal repair processes.

Here we go again ... an 'unconscious' + 'pleasant' anything is an oxymoron.....if you disagree name a non-conscious pleasant experience .... after all these years Paul, after all my corrections, you persist in maintaining such illogical assumptions

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Here we go again ... an 'unconscious' + 'pleasant' anything is an oxymoron.....if you disagree name a non-conscious pleasant experience .... after all these years Paul, after all my corrections, you persist in maintaining such illogical assumptions.

I beg your pardon.

Why does the placebo effect require consciousness at all? Certain beneficial stimuli cause my brain to alter my behavior and/or internal repair processes.

~~ Paul

[sbu]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I beg your pardon.

Why does the placebo effect require consciousness at all? Certain beneficial stimuli cause my brain to alter my behavior and/or internal repair processes.

~~ Paul

I don't understand what you mean by "beneficial stimuli". The point is that you get a stimuli that has zero biological effect except from the stimuli of your 'consciousness '.

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I beg your pardon.

Why does the placebo effect require consciousness at all? Certain beneficial stimuli cause my brain to alter my behavior and/or internal repair processes.

~~ Paul

You are pardoned .... but you need another pardon now because it still doesn't work (as SBU suggested) .... if you change the word from 'pleasant stimuli' to 'beneficial stimuli' ...while the word 'pleasant' implied consciousness .... the word 'beneficial' implies goal setting .... materialism isn't allowed either before the evolution of consciousness .... so to use either term to explain how a placebo effect evolves isn't allowed either

[Carl Jung]

I must say that Sheldrake seems extremely intelligent to me - his thoughts takes us much deeper than the one-dimensionality of the all encompassing answer "its all an illusion" of the extreme reductionists.

Not saying I accept brain = mind, but if we accept that hypothesis - why can't reduction simply be like reducing an engine to its parts? Sure, we know that an engine is made of parts, but that doesn't mean that if we see through the "illusion" of the engines make up the car will stop running?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by sbu

I don't understand what you mean by "beneficial stimuli". The point is that you get a stimuli that has zero biological effect except from the stimuli of your 'consciousness '.

Why? Why can't it be a purely nonconscious stimulus that alters my behavior or internal repair processes in a beneficial way?

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

You are pardoned .... but you need another pardon now because it still doesn't work (as SBU suggested) .... if you change the word from 'pleasant stimuli' to 'beneficial stimuli' ...while the word 'pleasant' implied consciousness .... the word 'beneficial' implies goal setting .... materialism isn't allowed either before the evolution of consciousness .... so to use either term to explain how a placebo effect evolves isn't allowed either.

Stop with the goal setting, please!

There is no goal setting. It is simply a stimulus that improves body repair or health. It's no different from a stimulus that causes me to run or duck.

Is my blood clotting cascade a conscious process? No. Why does any other body repair process have to be?

~~ Paul

[Iyace]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Stop with the goal setting, please!

There is no goal setting. It is simply a stimulus that improves body repair or health. It's no different from a stimulus that causes me to run or duck.

Is my blood clotting cascade a conscious process? No. Why does any other body repair process have to be?

~~ Paul

Your brain has control over clotting? Last I checked, that was a property of blood, not of brain.

[sbu]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Why? Why can't it be a purely nonconscious stimulus that alters my behavior or internal repair processes in a beneficial way?

~~ Paul

Conscious or nonconscious doesn't really matter or makes a difference from your position as consciousness is merely an illusion - a kind of afterburner of the activity of the brain.

Still, your position can't be falsified with our present science - but I don't subscribe to it personally.

[Johann]

Originally Posted by sbu

Conscious or nonconscious doesn't really matter or makes a difference from your position as consciousness is merely an illusion - a kind of afterburner of the activity of the brain.

Still, your position can't be falsified with our present science - but I don't subscribe to it personally.

Hey Sbu, maybe you're a panpsychist.

Do you think you would be able to respond to post #9? Thanks.

- Johann