Unscientific

[DysonSphere]

Almost invariably so called "believers" in life after death are put down by Skeptics as being unscientific. Sometimes there is a more easy-going skeptic who patronizingly says they would like to believe but the evidence is against it and they simply don't have enough faith to be a believer. A lot of believers seem to get timid when Skeptics try to play at being the "scientific"-type and they usually try to avoid an argument and in the process put down their beliefs. The popular intuition is that science is against the notion of life after death. Publicly it seems more acceptable to be an atheist of the scientific variety rather than some "new age" beatnik.

This continues to baffle me. Scientists have failed to adequately explain religion/spirituality, to explain how mental experience supposedly arises from the brain and by extension NDEs, OBEs and peak experiences. Yet in discussion Skeptics easily dismiss life after death because "science" apparently casts doubt on the notion and it requires a great leap of faith to believe in such things.

Despite the opinion of those like Richard Dawkins, there is no scientific reason to doubt life after death or more importantly, there is no reason whatsoever to not seriously consider the possibility.

I bring this issue up so that no one participating in the skeptiko community will claim their doubt in life after death is fueled by scientific fervor, it simply isn't true.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by DysonSphere

Despite the opinion of those like Richard Dawkins, there is no scientific reason to doubt life after death ........

I think that is too strong. There are reasons to doubt the concept of life after death - not least the fact that the consciousness of a living person may degrade progressively as a result of dementia or other conditions. Does there consciousness get restored at/after death?

Nevertheless, I think science has not demonstrated the opposite conclusion, and NDE's etc. give some support to the idea of life after death.

David

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

I'm willing to consider the idea of life after death, even though I think there is zero evidence for it. In particular, I cannot for the life of me understand why NDEs are taken as evidence. Why is it interesting that some people have common experiences when in the midst of severe brain trauma?* Is it interesting that some people have common experiences when they get punched in the stomach?

Originally Posted by Dyson

Nevertheless, I think science has not demonstrated the opposite conclusion, and NDE's etc. give some support to the idea of life after death.

Could you describe a line of evidence that would convince you there is no life after death?

~~ Paul

* We'll ignore the fact that NDEs seem to be colored by culture and upbringing.

[Chris Noble]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I'm willing to consider the idea of life after death, even though I think there is zero evidence for it. In particular, I cannot for the life of me understand why NDEs are taken as evidence. Why is it interesting that some people have common experiences when in the midst of severe brain trauma?* Is it interesting that some people have common experiences when they get punched in the stomach?


Could you describe a line of evidence that would convince you there is no life after death?

~~ Paul

* We'll ignore the fact that NDEs seem to be colored by culture and upbringing.

Sometimes when I'm sick with a fever I get weird disturbances in my body image. My hands or tongue will start to feel as is they are getting bigger and bigger. I can remember having these experiences when I was a young child and the same experiences have occured numerous times since. Am I supposed to conclude that my hands or tongue really are getting ten times larger?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Chris

Sometimes when I'm sick with a fever I get weird disturbances in my body image. My hands or tongue will start to feel as is they are getting bigger and bigger. I can remember having these experiences when I was a young child and the same experiences have occured numerous times since. Am I supposed to conclude that my hands or tongue really are getting ten times larger?

I think you're supposed to conclude that your hands and tongue are traveling to another dimension of sight and sound.

~~ Paul

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I'm willing to consider the idea of life after death, even though I think there is zero evidence for it. In particular, I cannot for the life of me understand why NDEs are taken as evidence. Why is it interesting that some people have common experiences when in the midst of severe brain trauma?* Is it interesting that some people have common experiences when they get punched in the stomach?

The NDE evidence is not that experiencers have common experiences. The evidence is that people have NDE's while they are clinically and brain dead. They are conscious and having perceptions while they are dead. These perceptions are not "common" they are "unique" to the person having the experience and they are verified by living people.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research11.html

Pam's body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing were stopped, her brain waves were flattened, and all the blood was drained from her head. For all practical purposes, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. But, during the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a profound NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations of her surgery were later verified to be very accurate. Pam's case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical perception evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments and procedures used and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically and brain dead. The following is the out-of-body aspect of her NDE in her own words:

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I'm willing to consider the idea of life after death, even though I think there is zero evidence for it.

The following is from the talk.origins faq.

The primary function of science is to demonstrate the existence of phenomena that cannot be observed directly.
...
In fact, the most important discoveries of science have only be inferred via indirect observation. Familiar examples of unobservable scientific discoveries are atoms, electrons, viruses, bacteria, germs, radio-waves, X-rays, ultraviolet light, energy, entropy, enthalpy, solar fusion, genes, protein enzymes, and the DNA double-helix.
...
The validity of a hypothesis does not stand or fall based on just a few confirmations or contradictions, but on the totality of the evidence.
...
In scientific practice, a superior and well-supported hypothesis will be regarded as a theory. A theory that has withstood the test of time and the collection of new data is about as close as we can get to a scientific fact.
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Scientific "Proof", scientific evidence, and the scientific method

Consider the following evidence and follow the links for more information ...

Individual Cases

The spirit of a grand master chess player plays through a medium at the grand master level in a style characteristic of the time of his life on earth.
http://www.thesurvivalfiles.com/Top-...4_Soulmate.pdf

A scholar of Asian languages speaks in Chinese with a spirit who successfully explains an ancient Chinese poem that modern scholars did not understand.
http://www.freewebs.com/psilib/Psych...resWhymant.txt

Spirits of crew members of a crashed dirigible, R-101, "provided technical details about its design and construction, recollections of test flights, discussions of political pressures and unrealistic deadlines that plagued the project, and a description of the crash itself and its causes" and "the personalities of the dead airmen also came through in recognizable detail".
R-101
Also see:
http://www.thesurvivalfiles.com/Top-40/case14_R101.pdf


Reincarnation

Reincarnation researcher Ian Stevenson identified children who had verifiable memories of the past lives, and who could converse in a foreign language they spoke in a past life.
Ian Stevenson

Death Bed Visions
From: ISS: Death-Bed Visions - The Psychical Experiences of the Dying: Sir William Barrett

Individuals near death have seen the spirit world. Visions have included spirits of individuals the patients did not know were dead.
ISS: Visions seen by the Dying of Persons by them Unknown to be Dead: Sir William Barrett

Those attending the dying also see the same spirits the dying see.

"A short time before she expired I became aware that two spirit forms were standing by the bedside, one on either side of it. I did not see them enter the room; they were standing by the bedside when they first became visible to me, but I could see them as distinctly as I could any of the human occupants of the room.
ISS: Visions of the Spirit of a Dying Person Leaving the Body: Sir William Barrett

Crisis Apparitions:

There are many reports of people observing spirits at the time of the spirit's death. Often the observer had no reason to suspect the observed person was near death. This rules out imagination as a source of the vision and proves the accuracy of the observation.

About fourteen years ago, about 3 o'clock one summer's afternoon, I was passing in front of Trinity Church, Upper King Street, Leicester, when I saw on the opposite side of the street a very old playmate, whom, having left the town to learn some business, I had for some time lost sight of. ... The next week I was informed of his somewhat sudden death at Burton-on-Trent, at about the time I felt certain he was passing in front of me.
Apparitions and the Case for Survival: D. Scott Rogo (SurvivalAfterDeath.org)

Cross Correspondences
In cross correspondence experiments, spirits provide parts of a message through different mediums. Only when the parts are pieced together do they provide the complete message. This proves that mediums are communicating with intelligent beings.
CROSS CORRESPONDENCES -- PROOF OF PSYCHIC COMMUNICATION?


Instrumental Trans Communication (ITC)

Electronic devices have allowed interactive conversations with spirits that anyone can hear. A demonstration was given live on Radio Luxembourg.

Koenig installed his equipment under the watchful eyes of the Radio's own engineers and the presenter of the program, Herr Rainer Holbe. One of the Radio's staff asked if a voice could come through in direct response to his requests. Almost immediately a voice replied:

Also see: http://www.thesurvivalfiles.com/Top-...s-machines.pdf

The Scole Experiments
During the Scole experiments the voices of spirits were heard, objects materialized, and "images were imprinted on unopened rolls of film". These experiments were observed by a number of scientists and a professional stage-magician with more than fifty years experience in psychic research who wrote "I discovered no signs of trickery, and in my opinion such conjuring tricks were not possible, for the type of phenomena witnessed, under the conditions applied."
VICTOR ZAMMIT -- The Book - 8. Scole Experiment proves the afterlife


Eminent Researchers

Charles Robert Richet winner of the 1913 Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine conducted his own investigations into the afterlife and wrote:

The "guide" of the medium (i.e., the new personality that appears) then seems to be a genuinely extraneous intelligence. These phenomena can rightly be called metapsychic because, taking them all in all, the normal intelligence of the sensitive is quite insufficient to explain the strange and potent cryptesthesia.
Mediums and Metapsychics: Charles Richet (SurvivalAfterDeath.org)

Gary Schwartz has published numerous research articles demonstrating the accuracy of mediums in scientific experiments including a triple-blind experiment in which the medium has no contact with the person getting the reading. This eliminates cold reading or the use of previous knowledge as an explanation for mental mediumship.

Anomalous Information Reception By Research Mediums Demonstrated Using A Novel Triple -Blind Protocol
http://veritas.arizona.edu/papers/Be...%20vol%203.pdf


For more evidence see:

"A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife" by Victor J. Zammit
Free Afterlife Book

"Better Evidence" weblog post by Michael Prescott
Michael Prescott's Blog: Better evidence

"The Survival Top 40" by Miles Edward Allen
The Survival Top 40

"Your Eternal Self" by R. Craig Hogan:
Your Eternal Self Drafts

"Nothing Better Than Death" by Kevin R. Williams:
Nothing Better Than Death - a book by Kevin Williams

[DysonSphere]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I'm willing to consider the idea of life after death, even though I think there is zero evidence for it. In particular, I cannot for the life of me understand why NDEs are taken as evidence. Why is it interesting that some people have common experiences when in the midst of severe brain trauma?* Is it interesting that some people have common experiences when they get punched in the stomach?

People describe the exact same phenomena in perfect health as well, "near-death" is a bit of misnomer.

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Could you describe a line of evidence that would convince you there is no life after death?

Proof that consciousness is generated by the brain.

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

* We'll ignore the fact that NDEs seem to be colored by culture and upbringing.

Its bound to be but even so there is a great deal cross-reference and it would take something more than skepticism to ignore that.

I'm not really trying to convert, I'm not saying any line of skepticism towards NDEs is necessarily invalid, I probably came off too strong. I'm just saying that the "believers" in NDEs are called unscientific and that isn't fair.

[DysonSphere]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I think you're supposed to conclude that your hands and tongue are traveling to another dimension of sight and sound.

Now you're just being nasty.

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

* We'll ignore the fact that NDEs seem to be colored by culture and upbringing.

These were also incompatible with their own cultures! In 1995, Professor Haraldsson and Osis, interviewed 877 terminally ill people, 120 had Near Death Experiences in total in both India and the USA. Their own religious cultures were incompatible with their Near Death Experiences contradicted both Christian (salvation) and Hindu (dissolution or instant reincarnation) but there were other core elements common to both.

Also if we define 'reality' as objectivity is the product of agreement between subjectivities then it doesn't matter if NDEs match our physical reality. If expectations of cultural conditioning modifies interpretation of these.

Materialists are claiming our physical reality is the reference point of all reality (ironically many materialists seriously consider Many Worlds Theory - so a word of caution in doing so - this is no different from those in past claiming the earth is the centre of the universe)

Objectivity is the product of agreement between subjectivities also applies to science - it is what most researchers agree upon within a particular field - until often changed.

Originally Posted by anonymous

The NDE evidence is not [just] that experiencers have common experiences. The evidence is that people have NDE's while they are clinically and brain dead.

Correct (and how other physicalist explanations struggle to produce the core elements in the correct order too)