Timeless

[David Bailey]

Paul,

I think it is a fascinating observation, and it definitely does not seem to be consistent with the idea of memories stored in neural nets - do you agree?

Really I am more interested by its inconsistency with the orthodox explanation of memory than anything else.

I wonder if people get NDE's while they are having heart transplants - is the blood ever stopped to the brain? If they do, maybe the relevant memories are transferred from the donor at that point!

David

[DysonSphere]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I mean that I don't see any reason to believe that they need special metaphysical interpretation.

I agree, thats the point, I interpret the experience as I would any other waking experience: as real.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Dyson

I agree, thats the point, I interpret the experience as I would any other waking experience: as real.

So my ex-wife really was the second coming of Christ?

All these experiences are real. But some of them are about made-up stuff.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by David

I think it is a fascinating observation, and it definitely does not seem to be consistent with the idea of memories stored in neural nets - do you agree?

By "it" do you mean transfered memories? I'm sorry, there aren't any memories being transfered. At best there might be some chemicals being transfered.

Part of our problem, David, is that you seem to believe everything you hear about this stuff. Then you talk to me as if the entire issue would be cleared up if I just weren't so closed-minded.

~~ Paul

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

By "it" do you mean transfered memories? I'm sorry, there aren't any memories being transfered. At best there might be some chemicals being transfered.

Part of our problem, David, is that you seem to believe everything you hear about this stuff. Then you talk to me as if the entire issue would be cleared up if I just weren't so closed-minded.

~~ Paul

Possibly I am far more skeptical than I come across. However, you and others judge all these phenomena by asking whether they fit with orthodox science. What I feel is that that test is now applied so readily to rule out 'awkward' information that the facts are getting seriously distorted. The orthodox theory of consciousness and reality (T) fits because T is used as a filter on the parts of reality that are deemed worthy of consideration scientifically.

If, for example, these patients had reported picking up mental state - optimistic, depressive, etc. - I am sure someone would have done a serious study of the phenomenon because it would be deemed safely orthodox because it could be associated with a hormone of some kind.

David

[DysonSphere]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

So my ex-wife really was the second coming of Christ?

All these experiences are real. But some of them are about made-up stuff.

~~ Paul

No, and the comparison is very poor for obvious reasons: NDEs have been reported by mentally healthy individuals all over the world for centuries and their reports have been consistent. It is obvious that your wife was or is mentally ill. Anyway, you make a good point by saying a sense of realism isn't necessarily an indicator of objectivity. However, the comparison is silly and i think you know this.

[Chris Noble]

Originally Posted by DysonSphere

No, and the comparison is very poor for obvious reasons: NDEs have been reported by mentally healthy individuals all over the world for centuries and their reports have been consistent. It is obvious that your wife was or is mentally ill. Anyway, you make a good point by saying a sense of realism isn't necessarily an indicator of objectivity. However, the comparison is silly and i think you know this.

How do you know that Paul's wife was mentally ill?

I think the fact that she thought she was the second coming of Christ is a good indication that she was mentally ill.

It is circular reasoning to then argue that she could not have really been the second coming of Christ because she was mentally ill.

[David Bailey]

Chris and Paul,

Surely the truth is that we describe people as mentally ill when their mental state is troublesome/dangerous to themselves or others - the definition is very subjective. Many sexual practices used to be described as medical conditions, but are now more or less accepted as natural variations.

As I mentioned before Ramanujan famously claimed to receive mathematical insight from a goddess! We don't call him deranged because he was a remarkable mathematician.

I am not saying your ex really was the second coming of Christ, but I do think these people maybe demonstrate to excess an aspect of consciousness that is in us all.

Imagine, for a moment that each conscious being is part of a big whole, and that we live with the illusion of being discrete individuals - perhaps sometimes that illusion breaks down. I am not claiming to believe in that (!!) because I try not to believe in things without enough evidence, but I certainly would not rule out the idea.

Reports of transplanted memories (TPM) are data - they might be genuine or possibly false. The absurd thing is that the scientific community seems to have no way of handling such data - it just has to throw it away untested - because it uses its current theory, T, to filter all its data!

One of the interesting things about TPM's, is that while these are not quite paranormal, they are sufficiently disruptive to conventional theory (if genuine) that they get treated in exactly the same way - above all, people don't want to look at the data in case they too get classed as nuts (and lose their grants!).

I sometimes get the feeling that there are shed loads of interesting data relating to consciousness that are thrown away simply because they might seriously challenge orthodox views - despite the fact that consciousness is so hard to explain and could really use an influx of new ideas and observations.

David