Timeless

[DysonSphere]

I wanted to start a new thread explaining why I feel the way I do about the legitimacy of NDEs and psi experiences, so the Skeptics here might have a better idea of where us "believer" folk are coming from. I think this might be better than just trying to change the each other's views.

The main reason I believe NDEs are "real" experiences (and also psi to a smaller degree) is because the best, most meaningful and beautiful experiences in my life have always been accompanied by a sense of "timelessness". This sense is emotional in that it is a feeling of stillness and satisfaction and intellectual as an understanding that no moment is really lost to time. Those moments, which I experience often through meditation and sometimes drugs, feels more "real", which is probably why it feels so good.

These emotional and intuitive peaks have led me to believe that all physical "time" is simply part of a greater reality of timelessness. When people who have had NDEs and psi experiences describe something similar I take them seriously.

Don't get the impression that this all about emotivism because I also feel I have equally valid intellectual justifications as well but I just wanted to let you all see where I'm coming from and if ya'll have experienced something similar.

[David Bailey]

I can't add much to that, because I have only had glimpses of the timeless state that you describe - but it is well documented, and I am sure it is real.

NDE's are quite extraordinary, and they seem sufficiently frequent that not even the skeptics try to deny that they exist.

I wish it were possible to obtain some safe drug experiences without breaking the law or risking getting a bad sample!

David

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by Dyson

This sense is emotional in that it is a feeling of stillness and satisfaction and intellectual as an understanding that no moment is really lost to time. Those moments, which I experience often through meditation and sometimes drugs, feels more "real", which is probably why it feels so good.
...
When people who have had NDEs and psi experiences describe something similar I take them seriously.

I have had such marvelous emotions, too. But it appears that taking people seriously involves seriously believing that they have had marvelous emotions and pleasant drug experiences. I certainly believe that, too. Why would I assume that it is anything more than that?

~~ Paul

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I have had such marvelous emotions, too. But it appears that taking people seriously involves seriously believing that they have had marvelous emotions and pleasant drug experiences. I certainly believe that, too. Why would I assume that it is anything more than that?

~~ Paul

What did you do to get those experiences?

Why is it something significant? Well I suppose it is a bit as though you discovered that if you pushed the gear lever in you car too far, the car took off and flew like a plane - you would not say the car had a fault, you would say that you had accessed some previously unrealised functionality.

David

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I have had such marvelous emotions, too. But it appears that taking people seriously involves seriously believing that they have had marvelous emotions and pleasant drug experiences. I certainly believe that, too. Why would I assume that it is anything more than that?

~~ Paul

Paul, this just leads us back to our earlier discussion, can you prove conscious hallucinations are generated in brain? It matters not whether psi experiences perfectly match our physical reality or not, first science must show that hallucinations are brain generated. For example drug induced hallucinations do not prove materialistic paradigm more so than alternatives. As objectivity is arguably the product of agreement of subjectivities, any match beyond chance expectation indicates the materialistic/no psi model isn't quite correct.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by David

What did you do to get those experiences?

Meditate. Relax on the beach.

Why is it something significant? Well I suppose it is a bit as though you discovered that if you pushed the gear lever in you car too far, the car took off and flew like a plane - you would not say the car had a fault, you would say that you had accessed some previously unrealised functionality.

We're talking about feelings of timelessness, stillness, satisfaction. How are they like a flying car?

Paul, this just leads us back to our earlier discussion, can you prove conscious hallucinations are generated in brain? It matters not whether psi experiences perfectly match our physical reality or not, first science must show that hallucinations are brain generated.

Why is the burden of proof on scientists?

~~ Paul

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

We're talking about feelings of timelessness, stillness, satisfaction. How are they like a flying car?
~~ Paul

This is pretend stupidity - right?

Well the conventional explanation of drug experiences (say) is that the drug has caused the brain to malfunction. My point is that when that 'malfunction' seems to consist of new experiences (see for example the descriptions of DMT trips), it is hard to accept that as a malfunction - just in the same way as when a car malfunctions it does not suddenly acquire a whole new functionality.

David

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by David

This is pretend stupidity - right?

No, I'm simply trying not to pretend that taking drugs is like discovering a flying car. But then again, what do I know?

Well the conventional explanation of drug experiences (say) is that the drug has caused the brain to malfunction. My point is that when that 'malfunction' seems to consist of new experiences (see for example the descriptions of DMT trips), it is hard to accept that as a malfunction - just in the same way as when a car malfunctions it does not suddenly acquire a whole new functionality.

I think you're taking the word "malfunction" too literally, assuming scientists use that term at all. I would just take it to mean that the brain functions in a way significantly different from the norm.

What I don't understand is why we should take this as a sign of the opening of a magical door into another realm. Computers malfunction all the time, but we don't assume that means there is a a world of idealistic/dualistic/magical computing that we're not otherwise aware of.

I don't really have a problem if people want to assume this. If there is anything to it, nothing stops scientists from exploring and discovering this other realm. I doubt using the word "malfunction" is going to bring a halt to the exploration of certain aspects of the brain.

~~ Paul

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

No, I'm simply trying not to pretend that taking drugs is like discovering a flying car. But then again, what do I know?


I think you're taking the word "malfunction" too literally, assuming scientists use that term at all. I would just take it to mean that the brain functions in a way significantly different from the norm.

~~ Paul

I think there is a serious point here. We all know what a computer malfunction is, and it is not a pretty sight. The brain has presumably only evolved to some sort of optimality in 'normal mode', and to me it is quite surprising that it has any other ways of operating except for obvious fault conditions - such as dementia.

The fact that you can add one simple chemical - DMT - to a brain, and it does something totally bizarre and different seems highly suggestive that it is not just a physical machine - but there are no knock down arguments here.

I would be interested to here more about your mystical experiences, and how you interpreted them.

David

[DysonSphere]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I have had such marvelous emotions, too. But it appears that taking people seriously involves seriously believing that they have had marvelous emotions and pleasant drug experiences. I certainly believe that, too. Why would I assume that it is anything more than that?

~~ Paul

What do you mean by "anything more than that". Its not like I pretend those experiences are real, they feel real, I'm not adding anything. Also, you can be in that state all the time, in my experience the only thing that is stopping is endless mental chatter. Just because some experiences don't fit well into what you deem as "real" you just ignore them?