Great interview of Melvin Morse

[Trancestate]

Originally Posted by Bruce Siegel

Since you bring up mystery schools, the one I've read the most about is the famous Eleusinian Mysteries. I guess you've heard of it? Most of the experts within today's psychedelic community seem to agree that the "agent of change" in those ceremonies was probably an LSD-like compound. Do you find that plausible?

Yes, I'm convinced that the Greater Mysteries involved the use of some sort of psychoactive agent. In addition, I'm persuaded by Peter Webster et al. that the agent was ergot, meaning the Greeks likely found a way to counter its toxic effects while preserving its psychedelic properties. Has anyone tested their proposed method?

And to tie this in with our original subject, in my own own experiences with psychedelics, I often felt that I was venturing into a state of consciousness somewhat akin to an NDE.

I know. I've read with interest your scattered posts on the subject. Good luck on your journeys.

Doug

[larry4444]

Originally Posted by Ninshub

(BTW, I'm not saying, and I don't myself think, that Christianity involved rituals inducing pain or life-threatening conditions.)

When you consider the morbid obsession of the church with the crucifixion and the self mortification and flagellation in the various monastic sects – I dunno
Thanks for the reference to the Mithraic mysteries. I’ve heard about them but never really delved into them before.

[Bruce Siegel]

Originally Posted by Trancestate

Good luck on your journeys.
Doug

Thanks, but it might be years til I venture into that territory again, if ever. I'm not the fearless pyschonaut I used to be.

I have to assume, though, that with a screen name like Trancestate, you've had a few experiences of your own?

[Trancestate]

Originally Posted by Bruce Siegel

Thanks, but it might be years til I venture into that territory again, if ever. I'm not the fearless pyschonaut I used to be.

I have to assume, though, that with a screen name like Trancestate, you've had a few experiences of your own?

I've had lots of experiences, but sadly, none of them have been of the psychedelic variety. When I was young, I was afraid to try psychedelic substances for fear they'd rot my brain. Now that I'm old and hopefully wiser, I don't know anyone in my area who has access to them. It's frustrating to read about the beneficial effects of psilocybin and other compounds without being able to experience them for myself.

Doug

[Bruce Siegel]

Originally Posted by Trancestate

I've had lots of experiences, but sadly, none of them have been of the psychedelic variety. When I was young, I was afraid to try psychedelic substances for fear they'd rot my brain. Now that I'm old and hopefully wiser, I don't know anyone in my area who has access to them. It's frustrating to read about the beneficial effects of psilocybin and other compounds without being able to experience them for myself.

Doug

You should meet one of my friends on another forum. He lives on a farm in upstate New York, and psilocybin grows naturally there. He makes good use of it too.

I see a hopeful trend. Psychedelics are coming back into the national conversation, and even being used experimentally--and praised--by prestigious institutions like Johns Hopkins.

But it's not just the substances themselves, it's the altered or mystical states they engender that are being taking seriously. It's a package deal: a society that values phenomena like NDEs can't outlaw psychedelics forever.

[Trancestate]

Originally Posted by Bruce Siegel

You should meet one of my friends on another forum. He lives on a farm in upstate New York, and psilocybin grows naturally there. He makes good use of it too.

Thanks Bruce. I'll keep it in mind.

I see a hopeful trend. Psychedelics are coming back into the national conversation, and even being used experimentally--and praised--by prestigious institutions like Johns Hopkins.

The Yale School of Medicine too:
Ketamine Relieves Depression Symptoms Within Hours

But it's not just the substances themselves, it's the altered or mystical states they engender that are being taking seriously. It's a package deal: a society that values phenomena like NDEs can't outlaw psychedelics forever.

Yeah, I see progress being made too. However, it won't surprise me if psychedelics remain outlawed for another ten years or more (probably more, IMO). The chronically depressed will have to continue to find their own solutions, and risk being caged as a result.

Doug

[Bruce Siegel]

Originally Posted by Trancestate

The Yale School of Medicine too:
Ketamine Relieves Depression Symptoms Within Hours
Doug

Thanks for the link, Doug. Judging from that article, they seem to be looking at ketamine as a chemical fix rather than a spiritual one. Their attitude is materialistic--ketamine "repairs synaptic connections." And the symptoms return in 7-10 days.

That's different than the articles I've read about psylocibin, which even the academic researchers say produces a genuine spiritual experience that has long-lasting effects, much like an NDE. (I added the NDE part.)

Yeah, I see progress being made too. However, it won't surprise me if psychedelics remain outlawed for another ten years or more (probably more, IMO). The chronically depressed will have to continue to find their own solutions, and risk being caged as a result.

You may be right, but considering the recent rapid strides in "normalizing" marijuana in the U.S., maybe things will happen more quickly than you think.

[Vortex]

Originally Posted by bermuda_grass

I didn't read the comment section on the PZ Meyer article, was mainly focusing on his entry but now that I read yes they didn't tie his alleged crime in with his studies. I agree with you on the JREF forum, I was actually giving them a compliment and was surprised how judicious they were being. One reader was even "skeptical" of the allegation:

Fenke wrote:
I'm having doubts with this story. All evidence seems to come from one 11 year old girl. It is not uncommon for an 11 year old to fabricate gruesome stories, where they are the centre of interest. Imagine how important it makes you feel if the police comes to save you, and everybody believes you, and makes you tell it over and over again. And Dad is taken away for being strict with you, yay.

The ironic thing is if you didn't know she was talking about Morse's alleged crime it sounds very much like a skeptical objection to a poltergeist

I'm not surprised... The problem is, people usually misunderstand the nature of dogmatism. Dogmatics are not agressive people; not stupid ones. The real tragedy is that: they are good and clever people who let themselves to be indoctrinated by some particular socio-lingustic construct. Such indoctrination creates a kind of mental blockade, which induce unconscious and involuntary experiential and socio-linguistc filtering of any incoming experience/information regarding some particular topic. But other topics - one which were not influenced by such mental blockade - may still remain unfiltered.

That's why, while is almost impossible to have a proper discussion with a dogmatics about their indoctrination-influenced topics, they may still be a very reasonable and reliable persons if any other topics are discussed.

One of my workmates is a good example. He is a kind, pleasant and clever man... unless something paranormal is mentioned. He is an ultra-extreme skeptic, and all his politeness and intelligence suddenly disappear if he hear words like "paranormal" or "anomalous". Once I tried to talk to him about academic parapsychology... I won't do it again, because I don't want another enormous scandal at work.

[Vortex]

Originally Posted by Vortex

I'm not surprised... The problem is, people usually misunderstand the nature of dogmatism. Dogmatics are not agressive people; not stupid ones. The real tragedy is that: they are good and clever people who let themselves to be indoctrinated by some particular socio-lingustic construct. Such indoctrination creates a kind of mental blockade, which induce unconscious and involuntary experiential and socio-linguistc filtering of any incoming experience/information regarding some particular topic. But other topics - one which were not influenced by such mental blockade - may still remain unfiltered.

That's why, while is almost impossible to have a proper discussion with a dogmatics about their indoctrination-influenced topics, they may still be a very reasonable and reliable persons if any other topics are discussed.

One of my workmates is a good example. He is a kind, pleasant and clever man... unless something paranormal is mentioned. He is an ultra-extreme skeptic, and all his politeness and intelligence suddenly disappear if he hear words like "paranormal" or "anomalous". Once I tried to talk to him about academic parapsychology... I won't do it again, because I don't want another enormous scandal at work.

I think, people - even people who did really nasty things, were cruel to someone etc. - are not really "bad" or "evil". They are just fallible and gullible. And they, not understanding it, use their gullibility to hide from their fallibility. They crave for false certanity - not necessarily of ideological kind. It may be certanity of their strength, their position, their power, their intelligence, their knowledge - and a subliminal, but persistent fear to lose them. To hide from it, they empower the indoctrinations forced on them in childhood - or find their own ones.

I think, to escape it, you should accept your fallibility. Accept that your your power is very limited; that your knowledge are mostly belief mistaken for knowledge; that no position deserve the sacrifice of your own real self.

And, one you understood that you are fallible, you should start to learn - from different sources. You may be weak - but you can become better! And you do not need intolerance and arrogance to really empower yourself.

[Trancestate]

Originally Posted by Bruce Siegel

Thanks for the link, Doug. Judging from that article, they seem to be looking at ketamine as a chemical fix rather than a spiritual one. Their attitude is materialistic--ketamine "repairs synaptic connections." And the symptoms return in 7-10 days.

That's different than the articles I've read about psylocibin, which even the academic researchers say produces a genuine spiritual experience that has long-lasting effects, much like an NDE. (I added the NDE part.)

All true, but what's wrong with also touting the apparent therapeutic benefits of psychedelics? In fact, this may be the path to their widespread acceptance in the not-too-distant future. Here's another article in the same vein from the IONS Noetic Now Journal:

The Promise of Psychedelic Research

You may be right, but considering the recent rapid strides in "normalizing" marijuana in the U.S., maybe things will happen more quickly than you think.

I hope so. And considering the normalization process started with medical marijuana, I don't see why the same road map can't be used for psychedelics.

Doug