A thought experiment...

[docpoco]

So, this is purely hypothetical... (In other words, the point of this thread is not to debate or provide a skeptical viewpoint to the theories discussed)

When you look at the big picture of all the different types of studies being done, some would argue that the indication is that our scientific view is incomplete. So lets say that, given the role some think consciousness plays in quantum mechanics, lets assume that the increase in the overall scientific interest in psi and the paranormal are not a coincidence.

Lets assume that this shift is preparing us for the end of this year. No, not the Mayan Calendar crap, though some have certainly made the connection that it is bizarre how the Aware Study results have been put off to coincide with late 2012.

Lets assume that someone does see a target. Heck, lets assume 2 people see the target, and the aware study results are released that conclude that consciousness does exist outside of the body, at least for some period of time after clinical death.

What kind of changes do you think we would see in people? Do you think there would be a religious shift? Do you think skeptics are truly "scientific inquirers" who are capable of being convinced?

I have some thoughts, but I will save them for a bit later as I really want to hear yours first.

[sbu]

Originally Posted by docpoco

So, this is purely hypothetical... (In other words, the point of this thread is not to debate or provide a skeptical viewpoint to the theories discussed)

When you look at the big picture of all the different types of studies being done, some would argue that the indication is that our scientific view is incomplete. So lets say that, given the role some think consciousness plays in quantum mechanics, lets assume that the increase in the overall scientific interest in psi and the paranormal are not a coincidence.

Lets assume that this shift is preparing us for the end of this year. No, not the Mayan Calendar crap, though some have certainly made the connection that it is bizarre how the Aware Study results have been put off to coincide with late 2012.

Lets assume that someone does see a target. Heck, lets assume 2 people see the target, and the aware study results are released that conclude that consciousness does exist outside of the body, at least for some period of time after clinical death.

What kind of changes do you think we would see in people? Do you think there would be a religious shift? Do you think skeptics are truly "scientific inquirers" who are capable of being convinced?

I have some thoughts, but I will save them for a bit later as I really want to hear yours first.

I think positive hits in the AWARE study would move a fairly large part of the sceptic community closer to the 'believer' camp (including myself), leaving the minority of hardliner Dawkins types yelling on the sideline.

I just don't think any sceptics seriously thinks AWARE will produce any hits. Even our podcast host has taken a defensive stance towards the AWARE study.

[Arouet]

I can't think of anything I would do differently. Even if we conclude that the mind exists outside of the body, we have precious little reliable infomation about the nature of it, the nature of what goes on after we die, etc. etc. Certainly not enough reliable information to change my behaviour.

[EthanT]

Originally Posted by docpoco

So, this is purely hypothetical... (In other words, the point of this thread is not to debate or provide a skeptical viewpoint to the theories discussed)

When you look at the big picture of all the different types of studies being done, some would argue that the indication is that our scientific view is incomplete. So lets say that, given the role some think consciousness plays in quantum mechanics, lets assume that the increase in the overall scientific interest in psi and the paranormal are not a coincidence.

Lets assume that this shift is preparing us for the end of this year. No, not the Mayan Calendar crap, though some have certainly made the connection that it is bizarre how the Aware Study results have been put off to coincide with late 2012.

Lets assume that someone does see a target. Heck, lets assume 2 people see the target, and the aware study results are released that conclude that consciousness does exist outside of the body, at least for some period of time after clinical death.

What kind of changes do you think we would see in people? Do you think there would be a religious shift? Do you think skeptics are truly "scientific inquirers" who are capable of being convinced?

I have some thoughts, but I will save them for a bit later as I really want to hear yours first.

I personally think many skeptics will find something about the setup of the test that will leave them an out, as far as buying into the ramifications of positive results.

Bottom line, it will be controversial, regardless.

[Arouet]

Originally Posted by EthanT

I personally think many skeptics will find something about the setup of the test that will leave them an out, as far as buying into the ramifications of positive results.

Bottom line, it will be controversial, regardless.

That's not the thought experiment. We're accepting for the sake of the argument that the experiment demonstrates mind=/brain.

[EthanT]

Originally Posted by Arouet

I can't think of anything I would do differently. Even if we conclude that the mind exists outside of the body, we have precious little reliable infomation about the nature of it, the nature of what goes on after we die, etc. etc. Certainly not enough reliable information to change my behaviour.

So, you wouldn't even think about it? wonder about it? or, anything?

This wouldn't give any credence to millenia of religious thinking or, if you prefer, spiritual thinking, coming from the East, or the the West?

You don't think NDEs jive up with any of what folks have been saying for 1000's of years?

[Arouet]

Originally Posted by EthanT

So, you wouldn't even think about it? wonder about it? or, anything?

I have thought about it. Wondering about it is fine - but for my behaviour to change I need to have a reason.

This wouldn't give any credence to millenia of religious thinking or, if you prefer, spiritual thinking, coming from the East, or the the West?

Possibly - but which one? And how to reliably find out?

You don't think NDEs jive up with any of what folks have been saying for 1000's of years?

Again: what conclusions can we draw based solely on NDEs? How should our behaviour change based solely on knowledge from NDEs? I generally try to treat people with respect as it is. I have negative behaviours that I want to change but I already know that I want to change them. If I am to change based on NDEs, what should it be, and why?

[EthanT]

Originally Posted by Arouet

That's not the thought experiment. We're accepting for the sake of the argument that the experiment demonstrates mind=/brain.

Sure it is. He talked about shifts in thinking that would result from one, or two, positive hits.

I think that for a majority of skeptics, especially the hard nosed ones, this test won't mean a whole lot if it's only a couple hits.

They will find an out. Something wrong with the test setup. Something wrong with Sam Parnia (maybe he ripped the tags off his mattresses/pillows and therefore can't be trusted, as that is a criminal act), or maybe they'll argue Mars was in retrograde during the study. That single hit must somehow be spurious.

For more reasonable skeptics, I think it will be a decent piece of evidence to add to the list.

I'm not trying to say zero skeptics will be intrigued by a positive hit, or two. Some will. It will be the best test we've had so far to sway skeptic opinion, and it will be a solid step on a slow progression to a gradual shift that happens over time, imho.

Now, if they get many more hits - that might be different.

[EthanT]

Originally Posted by Arouet

I have thought about it. Wondering about it is fine - but for my behaviour to change I need to have a reason.

See my last response below

Originally Posted by Arouet

Possibly - but which one? And how to reliably find out?

All religions are saying the same thing. Read about comparitive mythology to find out

Originally Posted by Arouet

Again: what conclusions can we draw based solely on NDEs? How should our behaviour change based solely on knowledge from NDEs? I generally try to treat people with respect as it is. I have negative behaviours that I want to change but I already know that I want to change them. If I am to change based on NDEs, what should it be, and why?

The most consistent thing reported from NDE cases is the extreme change in the person's outlook on life.

If you want to know the effect an NDE has on behavior, look at the people who have had them.

Listen to the consistent message they give. If you think the NDE experience is real, I think that would give more validity to the message everybody brings back from them.

So, an experience, which we are assuming is real in this thread now, comes back with a consistent message? Do we ignore that message?

[Arouet]

Originally Posted by EthanT

So, an experience, which we are assuming is real in this thread now, comes back with a consistent message? Do we ignore that message?

Ok, I'm game to explore it. why don't you present the message as you see it and let's try and figure out how it should affect our behaviour.