169. Dr. Michael Heiser On Why Christians Are Skeptical of the Supernatural (Podcast)

[Open Mind]

I find it interesting that Christianity has decided that Jesus is a mediator between earth and heaven ... yet if anyone were to suggest to Christians that Jesus was just an excellent 'medium' ... many Christians would probably take offense. They view mediums as in contact with demons ... however when Jesus contacted the 'dead' Moses and Elijah, it was holy and good They say to mediums 'do not disturb the dead' but when Jesus does it in bible, it is good.

Jesus reportedly levitated, healed, appeared after his death .... there are many witness endorsed cases of mediums doing so ...in fact far more traceable witness cases than the bible ... not just in the west but also mystics in the east too ... but only when within Christian establishment are those who experience the paranormal labeled a 'saint' . The bible may say 'these things I have done ye shall do and greater' but if a medium does it, they are witch .. and the old testament says 'ye shall not suffer a witch to live'

And if a medium see a shining being of light that advises only good action ('by their fruits ye shall know them' the bible advises) Christianity still throws this away because St Paul (partly responsible for the murder of Stephen, 'by their fruits ye shall know them') said 'satan can appear as an angel of light' ...... yet St Paul never met an earthly Jesus, he claimed a being of light on the road to Damascus made him blind (Would Jesus do that? 'By their fruits ye shall know them')

As a result, if Jesus appeared today, telling people to do good, even healing people .... if he contradicted the writings of St Paul, he would probably be labeled demonic too?

The bible warns of 'false prophets'. What is a 'false prophet', someone who contradicts the bible? Basically this makes Christianity unfalsifiable, uncorrectable and forever unchangeable. However what if a 'prophet' is an old term for a 'psychic' ... then a fake psychic or false prophet would be a conjurer/trickster, not a real psychic or medium.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

As a result, if Jesus appeared today, telling people to do good, even healing people .... if he contradicted the writings of St Paul, he would probably be labeled demonic too?

The bible warns of 'false prophets'. What is a 'false prophet', someone who contradicts the bible? Basically this makes Christianity unfalsifiable, uncorrectable and forever unchangeable. However what if a 'prophet' is an old term for a 'psychic' ... then a fake psychic or false prophet would be a conjurer/trickster, not a real psychic or medium.

Christianity cannot be unfalsifiable in this way as it has built-in recorded statements that exactly the sort of thing you describe will happen (Islam has this too btw):

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew Chapter 7:22/23

[alextsakiris]

Originally Posted by Arouet

Not all atheists believe mind=brain.

like who? do you?

[alextsakiris]

Originally Posted by segovius

It seems to me that it is axiomatic that one cannot - as a created being or, if you prefer, an being on a lower level - understand God.

agreed... axiomatic is the right word.

But all of us here are - presumably - at a stage before even that.....we have not approached God. We do not know if He is. Or where He is.

right, but don't you think "all of us here" applies to all human beings?

[segovius]

Originally Posted by alextsakiris

right, but don't you think "all of us here" applies to all human beings?

Actually no Alex. I think that some human beings - Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad etc being the obvious ones - have realized there place in relation to God, whatever that might be.

Those ones I've mentioned there are just the obvious ones who've been 'deified' or 'religionized' or whatever and so we know of them but there are - imho - probably thousands and thousands of others who don't have the reputation and are unknown to history but I am convinced there have been many.

[alextsakiris]

Originally Posted by segovius

Religion X -> Judaism -> Christianity -> Islam -> X1? -> X2? -> X3 etc

not sure we have enough fossils for this... we may be looking at a dying/regressing evolutionary branch:

Hoyt Edge: I remember an epiphanial moment hearing about the Aboriginal worldview, the “dream time.” All of the sudden I began to say, here’s an entirely different vocabulary. Here’s an entirely different way of looking at the world. And, it’s been around for forty or fifty thousand years. As a pragmatist — it works.

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by segovius

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matthew Chapter 7:22/23

That is why I will never be Christian ....the works is placed lower than loyality ... I just don't believe it. .... the bible also says 'the righteous shall wash their feet in the blood of the wicked' ... if true I'd rather cease to exist than live in the company of those who would do that.

The same applies to living in the presence of a God who supposedly tortured and sacrificed his innocent son to remove the sins of loyal followers, while the faithless who tried to do good either burn in hell or are destroyed on a day of judgment (the bible can't make it's mind up which) ... no thank you Christianity I don't want to live on in an afterlife where mafia boss rules apply. I think I will trust what NDEs appear to be instead.

[segovius]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

That is why I will never be Christian ....the works is placed lower than loyality ... I just don't believe it. .... the bible also says 'the righteous shall wash their feet in the blood of the wicked' ... if true I'd rather cease to exist than live in the company of those who would do that.

The same applies to living in the presence of a God who supposedly sacrificed his innocent son to remove the sins of loyal followers, while the faithless who tried to do good are either burn in hell or are destroyed on a day of judgment (the bible can't make it's mind up which) ... no thank you Christianity I don't want to live on in an afterlife where mafia boss rules apply. I think I will trust what NDEs appear to be instead.

I'm with you there.... but I'm not so sure about trusting the NDEs. I think it's more a question of trusting yourself.

Some NDEs do in fact contain elements of traditional Christian (or other religious) Hell and punishments. Some don't.

I personally feel that this is not contradictory as such but neither is it real - it may be a reflection of the percipient's mind and associated being/conditioning/fears/hopes or whatever.

[alextsakiris]

Originally Posted by segovius

Actually no Alex. I think that some human beings - Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad etc being the obvious ones - have realized there place in relation to God, whatever that might be.

I get what you're saying... but I'm less sure. maybe we're all subject to certain limitations as part of being human... I'm thinking, "Lord, why hast thou forsaken me."

[Michael Larkin]

“Love” is a word for a human experience.

Imagine one is the only conscious being that exists. What is one’s feeling of oneself? Using another human word, maybe "acceptance". What one is, is. What’s not to love?

What would “not-love” be? Unawareness, or forgetfulness, of what one is. Becoming more aware, or less forgetful, increases propinquity to what one is.

There is no “sin”. There is nothing to “punish”. There’s just greater or lesser degrees of closeness to what one truly is.

Now imagine one creates what we call the universe--an experiment in becoming forgetful and gradually rediscovering oneself from multiple, evolving perspectives. One of which I believe to be me, another you.

Scriptures are attempted blueprints of how to accomplish the return journey. They all have a certain amount in common. They all get corrupted according to the degree of forgetfulness of proponents.

The God many atheists don’t believe in is often pretty much the same as the one theists do believe in. Atheists are disappointed in Him, believers sometimes tend to be frightened by Him and toe the line on that account. I think atheists may in some instances be rather less forgetful than theists--nearer rather than farther from Him. This is why we can have something called secular humanism (which I believe to be quite close to the way of Jesus), and why I’d classify someone like Richard Dawkins as a proponent of it, though his anger at the conventional idea of God often gets the better of him.

Christianity as commonly understood by both believers and non-believers is, at least to my mind, FUBAR. Both sides are thinking in terms that are far too literal, and many of the discussions/arguments here and elsewhere are being conducted at that level.

I say, look at the blueprint. Somehow, despite the corruption, I think useful elements persist. Somewhere in the New Testament, the way of the man called Jesus still lurks. I don’t believe it has anything literally to do with virgin birth, physical crucifixion, resurrection, dying for our salvation (what a crazy idea), still less with absurd doctrines about transubstantiation and so on; doctrines that are way weirder than anything psi has to offer.

Seems to me that many Christians are leery of psi not so much because it seems weird, but because it doesn’t seem weird enough.

Finally, I want to add that it’s not just Christianity; imo, other religious formulations are FUBAR too.