Terminal Lucidity

[EthanT]

I was just watching a video of Dr Peter Fenwick at the Towards a Science of Consciousness 2011 event and came across a phenomenon that I personally hadn't heard of before - Terminal Lucidity. In some ways this sounded more fascinating that NDEs.

Apparently, minutes, or even seconds, before death, the dying experience a bright flash of outward lucidity. Now, that doesn't sound all that amazing at first, until you hear some of the examples.

(1) People that have been mentally gone from Alzheimer's disease becoming lucid and saying goodbye to family members

(2) People who have been paralyzed suddenly able to move

(3) People waking up from comas ever so briefly to say goodbye before they die

Anyhow, you can hear about this in the following video:

Peter Fenwick - Toward a Science of Consciousness - Stockholm 2011 - YouTube

This seems about as tough to scientifically explain as the veridical component of NDEs.

It seems the Peter's numbers all come from reports on the incidences after the fact (I'm sure some will dismiss it as anecdotal). Sounds like no specific studies have been done on this, but it seems like something that could pop up in studies like AWARE, where large numbers of cases are being investigated.

[Johann]

Originally Posted by EthanT

I was just watching a video of Dr Peter Fenwick at the Towards a Science of Consciousness 2011 event and came across a phenomenon that I personally hadn't heard of before - Terminal Lucidity. In some ways this sounded more fascinating that NDEs.

Apparently, minutes, or even seconds, before death, the dying experience a bright flash of outward lucidity. Now, that doesn't sound all that amazing at first, until you hear some of the examples.

(1) People that have been mentally gone from Alzheimer's disease becoming lucid and saying goodbye to family members

(2) People who have been paralyzed suddenly able to move

(3) People waking up from comas ever so briefly to say goodbye before they die

Anyhow, you can hear about this in the following video:

Peter Fenwick - Toward a Science of Consciousness - Stockholm 2011 - YouTube

This seems about as tough to scientifically explain as the veridical component of NDEs.

It seems the Peter's numbers all come from reports on the incidences after the fact (I'm sure some will dismiss it as anecdotal). Sounds like no specific studies have been done on this, but it seems like something that could pop up in studies like AWARE, where large numbers of cases are being investigated.

I had totally forgot about these! Thanks so much for bringing them back up Ethan!

Suddenly, the argument that the mind has to equal the brain because Alzheimers can get rid of our memory "cache" seems to hold less credibility. A receiver hypothesis now makes mores sense; these memories were simply inaccessible to the subjects as the result of structural damage, but became accessible near death as the result of some miraculous healing of the structures of the body - as is evident from instances of limb paralysis terminal lucidity.

But the most interesting question of all is

Why?

What is the purpose of an NDE? What is the purpose of gaining lucidity just for a goodbye?

How could evolution possibly have benefited from this?

- Johann

[Craig Weiler]

Originally Posted by EthanT

I was just watching a video of Dr Peter Fenwick at the Towards a Science of Consciousness 2011 event and came across a phenomenon that I personally hadn't heard of before - Terminal Lucidity. In some ways this sounded more fascinating that NDEs.

Apparently, minutes, or even seconds, before death, the dying experience a bright flash of outward lucidity. Now, that doesn't sound all that amazing at first, until you hear some of the examples.

(1) People that have been mentally gone from Alzheimer's disease becoming lucid and saying goodbye to family members

(2) People who have been paralyzed suddenly able to move

(3) People waking up from comas ever so briefly to say goodbye before they die

Anyhow, you can hear about this in the following video:

Peter Fenwick - Toward a Science of Consciousness - Stockholm 2011 - YouTube

This seems about as tough to scientifically explain as the veridical component of NDEs.

It seems the Peter's numbers all come from reports on the incidences after the fact (I'm sure some will dismiss it as anecdotal). Sounds like no specific studies have been done on this, but it seems like something that could pop up in studies like AWARE, where large numbers of cases are being investigated.

I think that this is actually fairly common. I've been hearing about this sort of thing all my life.

[really]

Originally Posted by Johann

Suddenly, the argument that the mind has to equal the brain because Alzheimers can get rid of our memory "cache" seems to hold less credibility. A receiver hypothesis now makes mores sense; these memories were simply inaccessible to the subjects as the result of structural damage, but became accessible near death as the result of some miraculous healing of the structures of the body - as is evident from instances of limb paralysis terminal lucidity.

How do you come to this realization without knowing the neuropathology taking place within the brain at the time of a terminally lucid event.

But the most interesting question of all is

Why?

Yes why, but why does it have to be evidence the brain is a radio reciever ?

What is the purpose of an NDE? What is the purpose of gaining lucidity just for a goodbye?

Why would you assume there's a purpose ?

How could evolution possibly have benefited from this?

Again I ask why ? Why would you assume evolution has anything to do with it. It could be that our brains, as complex as they are, are just capable of do this, just like we are capable of making music.


P.S. My Grandmother had Alzheimer she never had a moment of mental clarity beyond a certain point of time.

[Roms]

Originally Posted by really

Again I ask why ? Why would you assume evolution has anything to do with it. It could be that our brains, as complex as they are, are just capable of do this, just like we are capable of making music.

So to you it seems entirely possible that a damaged complex possible can start working again for a short span and then break down.
Please point to a any sorts of appliance in the world that is capable of doing that. And give a reference.

Rather than hiding behind the "the brain is complex so it can be capable of doing this" argument, you need to provide facts/data.

By the way "why" is a valid question. It's the label of the inquiring mind the one that should animate people who claim to scientist.
Had we not asked ourselves the question of "why is the sky blue" we wouldnt have had the answer.

[really]

Originally Posted by Roms

So to you it seems entirely possible that a damaged complex possible can start working again for a short span and then break down.

Evidently it does.

Please point to a any sorts of appliance in the world that is capable of doing that. And give a reference.

We are neither a washing machine or a radio receiver.

Rather than hiding behind the "the brain is complex so it can be capable of doing this" argument, you need to provide facts/data.

Johann being more convinced the brain is a radio receiver etc. is more plausible ? He's attempting to make connections while seemly ignoring more likely prosaic explanations based on neuropathology.

By the way "why" is a valid question. It's the label of the inquiring mind the one that should animate people who claim to scientist.
Had we not asked ourselves the question of "why is the sky blue" we wouldnt have had the answer.

Why is a valid question, always. It isn't a valid question when the suppositions he expressed are the only ones he first considered.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Johann

But the most interesting question of all is

Why?

What is the purpose of an NDE? What is the purpose of gaining lucidity just for a goodbye?

How could evolution possibly have benefited from this?

- Johann

I'd guess that there is no specific purpose - it is just the process of consciousness breaking free of the body.

David

[Roms]

Originally Posted by really

Evidently it does.

No it doesn't if you follow a strict mechanistic approach.

We are neither a washing machine or a radio receiver.

But according to you we are a machine. OK let's me help you here. The closest machine we can find with a high level of complexity is a computer.
Now, have you ever seen or ever heard of a damaged computer that's start all of a sudden performing again at the level it was prior being damaged. I havent. Please provide me with one example. I am really interested.

Johann being more convinced the brain is a radio receiver etc. is more plausible ? He's attempting to make connections while seemly ignoring more likely prosaic explanations based on neuropathology.

Prosaic explanations like? Like the brain magically rewire itself so that the individual makes sense again and then not anymore. If there is rewiring what triggered the wiring? The brain that was not wired properly. We, again, end up in a circular reference.

[really]

Originally Posted by Roms

No it doesn't if you follow a strict mechanistic approach.

We are not simply mechanical machines. Since you are implying we are something more are you able to prove this in a substantive way ? Or are you just going on gut feeling ?

But according to you we are a machine. OK let's me help you here. The closest machine we can find with a high level of complexity is a computer.
Now, have you ever seen or ever heard of a damaged computer that's start all of a sudden performing again at the level it was prior being damaged. I havent. Please provide me with one example. I am really interested.

We aren't computers either.

Prosaic explanations like? Like the brain magically rewire itself so that the individual makes sense again and then not anymore. If there is rewiring what triggered the wiring? The brain that was not wired properly. We, again, end up in a circular reference.

I assume this comes with the learned authority you have that you know the neuropathology taking place within the brain in these cases ?

Let me put it to you bluntly your talking off the top of your head and the one invoking magic.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Do we have some well-documented cases?

~~ Paul