Parapsychology and alternative medicine forum

Part of parapsychology articles and blog site


Go Back   Parapsychology and alternative medicine forums of mind-energy.net > Skeptiko podcast forums > Skeptiko Podcast

Skeptiko Podcast The Official discussions forum of skeptiko.com podcast


User Infomation

Latest Threads
- by jt512
- by sbu
- by jacob

Advertisement

Partner Links

 
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:07 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Mind View Post
Exactly so the term 'atheist' is commonly a sweeping dismissal of concepts that the 'atheist' often hasn't even considered. One has to define God before one defines a disbelief in it.
No. If one has never heard of the concept of God then one also has no belief in it.
Sponsored Links - register to remove ads
  #22  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:12 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 8,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Mind View Post
Yes but people believe in models of 'God' that are not theist.... example pantheism.
From what I understand, depending on what kind of pantheist one is one may be atheist or theist

Quote:
Are you sure you aren't just trying to pigeon hole concepts you don't like under a sweeping term?
No. Atheism and theism ARE sweeping terms. They are a dichotomy. You are either one or the other.

Quote:
So if a materialist believes in transhumanism (many do!) , they believe humans eventually upload their consciousness to machines and evolve a higher guiding stucture (i.e. like an internet consciousness being greater than any individual computer) ...then you have a materialist's type of conscious deity that is guiding the lesser consciousness in some intelligent manner.
I don't think that meets any general definition of deity.
  #23  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:39 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1
Default A well-intended criticism

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on a Skeptiko thread.

I don't usually introduce myself with an abridged version of my resume but I feel that it's pertinent to describe my background for the purposes of this post. I'm a PhD student in biophysics (working mostly on quantum effects in biological systems) and I completed undergraduate degrees in cognitive psychology, philosophy and physics, and a postgraduate Honours degree in theoretical physics, with a focus on the role of time in various formulations of quantum mechanics. Here is my most recent publication: http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/...nphys2332.html

Something else possibly worth mentioning is that I've been tutoring my university's' undergraduate course on the philosophy of modern physics on and off for about ten years.

I've been a regular listener to Skeptiko for a few years now. I admire Alex's ability to maintain a healthy tension between openness and skepticism, his respect for academic qualifications and professional experience, and the courtesy with which he (usually) debates his interviewees. I also like that an appreciable fraction of the people he interviews are actually qualified and professionally experienced enough to speak with authority on the topic about which they are being questioned.

This week's program spurred me to write this post because I found it to be a dramatic departure from the usual high standards of this show. I got the impression that the interviewer and interviewee were well-intentioned. The reason I found the show so difficult to listen to is that they both spoke with such self-assured confidence about science that, clearly, neither of them understood to any depth. This 'quantum physicist', who describes his own career on his website in such grandiose terms and yet lists no peer-reviewed publications on his credentials page, has the audacity to proclaim the nature of the world and mock brilliant, accomplished scientists. He then proceeds to demonstrate a level of understanding of relativity and quantum theory roughly equivalent to the early undergraduate students whom I tutor on these topics. The difference between this high priest of the truth and my students is that the latter crowd are actually willing to acknowledge their uncertainty about the way the world works.

Actually working in quantum physics, one comes to recognise certain give-away cues in the language of people pretending to speak with authority. The first is that they talk themselves up. I am a (very) early career physicist. I don't know much but I have had the privilege to interact with world-renowned physicists who are actually working at the cutting edge of quantum theory. The genuinely great people working in this field are well aware of the limits of current theory and also aware that, currently, there is no other more empirically successful description of the world. Theory is nothing if it can't explain experiments and, currently, nothing does a better job of that than quantum theory. Bray said on the show that despite the money spent on physical experiments over the last half century, physics has 'utterly failed' (I'm paraphrasing that quotation). If quantum physics and relativity didn't work, most 21st century technology wouldn't work. There would be no computers, no GPS, no lasers and no podcasts. Certainly, physics is incomplete and is, in my opinion, yet to satisfactorily account for the relationship between mind and matter - hence my interest in the topics covered in most Skeptiko shows. The physicists whom I work with typically agree with all this. What they don't do is say things like 'there's nothing inside a black hole' and 'everything that Stephen Hawking has ever proposed has been disproved', or claim that Leonard Susskind has shown Stephen Hawking that his ideas about black holes should be replaced with the holographic principle (referred to by Bray as the holographic theory). Here is a nice paper, co-authored by Susskind, about the effects of Hawking radiation: Phys. Rev. D 46, 3444 (1992): End point of Hawking radiation

Hawking radiation requires that things fall into black holes, which Bray seems to think is impossible. Any standard text on general relativity will explain why he's wrong about that. In short, it's because space is *locally* flat in any given reference frame, even in strongly curved spacetime. Time does not stop at the event horizon for the object falling through it. The experience of falling through the event horizon of a black hole would be entirely uneventful for the person/object doing it, except that so-called tidal forces might be felt between the top and bottom of the object. When Hawking radiation is generated, the things falling through the event horizon are virtual photons, which are predicted by quantum electrodynamics. Bray proclaims with some confidence on the show that he 'knows what a quantum electrodynamic event is', despite describing the theory is inexact terms that sounds nothing like the way I usually hear physicists talk about QED.

Now, I don't want to be unfair. If this guy really has had the long and important career in physics that he says he has, then I hope he'll be gracious enough to be patient with a young ignoramus like me and guide me through rigorous explanations of his arguments. I would be doubly enlightened if he did so with the assistance of publications in physics journals, preferably some of his own authoring. I would be delighted if the key to understanding consciousness really were just dividing a real, finite number by infinity.

In the meantime, I would encourage open-minded listeners of Skeptiko to maintain a healthy skepticism of people who claim to be authorities on complicated-sounding things and the back up those claims by arrogantly decrying the establishment and throwing around big words. Anyone can call his/herself a 'quantum physicist'. It's useful to know that people who actually work in quantum physics don't call themselves 'quantum physicists'. They are simply physicists. And it is a very, very long way from the Schrodinger equation to any kind of claim about religion. Quantum mechanics is just a mathematical framework. We can - and do - interpret it however we like.
  #24  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:50 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 27
Default Atheism is defined as a Religion

From Princeton School of Theology:

One definition, sometimes called the "function-based approach," defines religion as any set of beliefs and practices that have the function of addressing the fundamental questions of human identity, ethics, death and the existence of the Divine (if any). This broad definition encompasses all systems of belief, including those that deny the existence of any god, those that affirm the existence of one God, those that affirm the existence of many gods, and those that pass on the question for lack of proof.

The 'belief' that a god or God does not exist qualifies as a 'belief system' and therefore a religion. This is validated by U.S. Law and so protected as a religion ( Matt Dillahunty. "Atheism and the Law". Atheist Community of Austin. Retrieved 20 July 2009. James J. Kaufman, v. Gary R. McCaughtry, et al. United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit No. 04-1914 (19 August 2005).
  #25  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:58 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,718
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post


No. Atheism and theism ARE sweeping terms. They are a dichotomy. You are either one or the other.



I don't think that meets any general definition of deity.
Deists aren't theists, but neither are they atheist. Neither are animists. Those two terms aren't a dichotomy. Atheism is the lack of belief in any god, not just a theistical god, by definition. However, theism and deism aren't the same. So, no, it is not a dichotomy.
  #26  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:00 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 27
Default Atheism is a vlidated religion

From Princeton School of Theology:

Any ‘belief’ system without a fundamental proof qualifies as a ‘belief system’ and as such a religion.

One definition, sometimes called the "function-based approach," defines religion as any set of beliefs and practices that have the function of addressing the fundamental questions of human identity, ethics, death and the existence of the Divine (if any). This broad definition encompasses all systems of belief, including those that deny the existence of any god, those that affirm the existence of one God, those that affirm the existence of many gods, and those that pass on the question for lack of proof.


Furthermore, atheism is recognized as a valid religion and is protected under the U.S. Law as such.

Matt Dillahunty. "Atheism and the Law". Atheist Community of Austin. Retrieved 20 July 2009. James J. Kaufman, v. Gary R. McCaughtry, et al. United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit No. 04-1914 (19 August 2005).
  #27  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:20 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 437
Default



As much as QM is a fascinating subject his book is titled...Quantum Physics, Near Death Experience, Eternal Consciousness, Religion and the The Human Soul ...phewwwww.. what a mouthful.

So? Cut to the chase?

Is Dr. Willaim Bray a Theist? A Christian? I would have like to know how and why he came to that conclusion. Anyone know his reasoning on this issue? How many nde's has he had and why? Anyone know? Again, loved the interview, but I came away without a clue as to how his personal experiences affected his conclusions.

Skeptiko was created to discuss scientific evidence. But, if you were asked how a restaurant was, would you describe the architecture, the meal presentation, the price list....and leave out anything about how the meal tasted?

  #28  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:33 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 420
Default

Hi, platobird. I think you should read the book, it's over 1,000 pages long with lots of information. It's simply impossible to fit all of the into an hour-long interview.
  #29  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:38 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,843
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet View Post
From what I understand, depending on what kind of pantheist one is one may be atheist or theist
Isn't a pantheist a theist by definition?
  #30  
Old 08-08-2012, 11:53 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,064
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enrique Vargas View Post
I think you should read the book, it's over 1,000 pages long with lots of information. It's simply impossible to fit all of the into an hour-long interview.
Thank you for the interesting interview ... yes I will be reading his book ...
Sponsored Links - register to remove ads
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1

Ad Management by RedTyger