180. Dr. William Bray, Quantum Physics Incompatible With Atheists Ideas About Intelligent Design and Consciousness (Podc

[alextsakiris]

Interview examines the connection between quantum physics and human consciousness.

Join Skeptiko guest host Enrique Vargas for an interview with Quantum Physicist Dr. William Bray, author of, Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consc[...]

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Update 8/15/2012:

A few weeks back I had the pleasure and the privilege to sit in as a guest host for Skeptiko interviewing a very interesting guest, William Bray, author of the book "Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul" . After the interview various Skeptiko listeners raised questions regarding W. Bray's scientific credentials, considering that the book deals with various very specialized aspects of quantum mechanics. This type of inquiries (proof of tittle, peer-reviewed publications, etc) is very common and completely legitimate for those publishing books on science and making public claims. So far William Bray has been unwilling to provide proof of his academic qualifications, or work-related credentials.

In the truly skeptical and impartial spirit of Skeptiko, I can no longer stand behind the claims of William Bray unless/until he's able to verify these claims regarding his credentials. -- Enrique

[anonymous]

http://www.skeptiko.com/william-bray...with-atheists/

and another urban myth and misconception is that a these scientists, Schrodinger, Oppenheimer, Einstein, Dirak, Bohr, were Atheists. They were not. They were very deeply religious men and a lot of people misquote a lot of the things they said to try and propose the idea that they were Atheists.

Dirak should be spelled Dirac. Linus Pauling thought Dirac was an atheist. Wikiquote gives one quote suggesting Dirac was an atheist and another that he wasn't. The latter could be a figure of speech so I would say based on the first quote below that Dirac was an atheist. Even if he wasn't an atheist, I don't think you can say calling him an atheist is misquoting him.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_Oppenheimer

If we are honest — and scientists have to be — we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way. What I do see is that this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet. Quiet people are much easier to govern than clamorous and dissatisfied ones. They are also much easier to exploit. Religion is a kind of opium that allows a nation to lull itself into wishful dreams and so forget the injustices that are being perpetrated against the people. Hence the close alliance between those two great political forces, the State and the Church. Both need the illusion that a kindly God rewards — in heaven if not on earth — all those who have not risen up against injustice, who have done their duty quietly and uncomplainingly. That is precisely why the honest assertion that God is a mere product of the human imagination is branded as the worst of all mortal sins.
Remarks made during the Fifth Solvay International Conference (October 1927), as quoted in Physics and Beyond : Encounters and Conversations (1971) by Werner Heisenberg, pp. 85-86; these comments prompted the famous remark later in the day by Wolfgang Pauli : "Well, our friend Dirac, too, has a religion, and its guiding principle is "God does not exist and Dirac is His prophet."

...

God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world.

If Dirac believed in some other form of God, other than the biblical God, I don't think he would say religion has no basis in reality.

Linus Pauling thought Dirac was an atheist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...urnames_N_to_Q)

... I [Pauling] am not, however, militant in my atheism. The great English theoretical physicist Paul Dirac is a militant atheist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...urnames_N_to_Q)

[anonymous]

http://www.skeptiko.com/william-bray...with-atheists/

and another urban myth and misconception is that a these scientists, Schrodinger, Oppenheimer, Einstein, Dirak, Bohr, were Atheists. They were not. They were very deeply religious men and a lot of people misquote a lot of the things they said to try and propose the idea that they were Atheists.

I can't find any information indicating that Oppenheimer and Bohr were not atheists. If William Bray is going to contradict the consensus view the burden is on him to provide evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr

Simmons, John (1996). The Scientific 100: a rankings of the most influential scientists, past and present.. Carol Publishing Group. p. 16. ISBN 978-0-8065-1749-0. "His [Bohr's] mother was warm and intelligent, and his father, as Bohr himself later recalled, recognized "that something was expected of me." The family was not at all devout, and Bohr became an atheist who regarded religious thought as harmful..."

http://hughwilliamson.hubpages.com/h...ir-View-of-God

J. Robert Oppenheimer, a physicist and scientific director of the Manhattan Project, was known to be interested in Eastern religions and he sometimes quoted from Eastern philosophy. He read the Bhagavad Gita while in college and was greatly impressed with it, but, aside from an intellectual interest there is no evidence that Oppenheimer believed in or practiced any religion. Whether Oppenheimer believed in a higher power in any form is unknown.

[anonymous]

Scientists who did believe in God, psi, the afterlife or some type of paranormal phenomenon include

Nobel Prize Winners:

Max Planck
Wolfgang Pauli
Erwin Schrödinger
Brian D. Josephson
Charles Robert Richet
John William Strutt
Marie Curie
Pierre Curie
Eugene Wigner

Others:

Charles Darwin
Alan Turing
Wernher von Braun
David Bohm
Alfred Russel Wallace
Sir William Crookes
Sir Robert Boyle

Details and references at the link above.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by anonymous

180. Dr. William Bray, Quantum Physics Incompatible With Atheists Ideas About Intelligent Design and Consciousness | Skeptiko - Science at the Tipping Point



Dirak should be spelled Driac.

OK - I could not resist quoting that!

I don't like to talk about this in terms of 'atheism', because that is such an inexact term!

David

[Michael Larkin]

Alex's questions:

Why would we think there's this underlying reality to quantum physics--to these equations and mathematical propositions? Isn't that just as much subjected to this reality-creating consciousness as everything else?

So aren't we in an infinite loop of abstraction, and can we really get out of it by saying, "oh no, I put my finger on it--its this mathematical equation over here; this is somehow more real than something else"?

[Enrique Vargas]

It's possible that the above mentioned speach by Dirac would put a question mark on dr. Bray's statement that Dirac was a religious man. Curiously enough, by the same token it proves another point Bray made about science not being exempt from ideology. This speach is militantly, vehemently politico-ideological, there is nothing scientific about it, word for word, it's perfectly fit to be part of a Party Congress speach by any Politkommissar in the the Soviet Politburo. One had to understand the socio-political context of the 20-30 of the XX century where a big part of the european intelligentsia professed deeply rooted pro-marxist sympathies. In any case, whether Dirac was an atheist or not is not that important, if he was, no believer is going to stop believing because of him and vice versa.

[platobird]

I enjoyed the interview very much...although discussions about QM often seems like a foreign language to me.

There's two issues I wish were at least mentioned in the interview though, or should I listen again?

Did he have several NDE's and under what circumstances? How pertinent are they to the conclusions he has come to?

And it seems from what I've read that he's now a Christian, or is that his family background? Hmmmm....I'd like to try and understand how he makes the giant leap from what an infinite and vastly intelligent consciousness to an earthly religion? Why Christianity and not Buddhism or Scientology...or pick any other one you might think of. Why pin it down to Christianity?

Great show though. Thank you for hosting it Enrique and Alex.

Love and Light
Platobird

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by Enrique Vargas

In any case, whether Dirac was an atheist or not is not that important, if he was, no believer is going to stop believing because of him and vice versa.

I understand your sentiment and I agree, I don't think it would cause anyone to change their minds. There are scientists of equal stature that are clearly not atheists.

However I do have an interest in the subject because many pseudo-skeptics suggest that people who believe in God, the afterlife, and psi are somehow intellectually inferior. It's not so bad on this forum, but elsewhere on the internet and out in the real world it is pretty big problem. I think it is important to point out for the benefit of those exposed to such rhetorical abuse, that many of the greatest scientists of all time did believe in God, the afterlife and other paranormal phenomena.

I pointed out that I couldn't find clear evidence supporting William Bray when he says Dirac, Oppenheimer, and Bohr were atheists because I would like to know if there really is such evidence. One of the features of this forum is that people are not shy about telling other members when they are wrong - so if anyone knows evidence that shows those scientists were not atheists than it will probably be posted here. Also, sometimes the interviewee joins the discussion here and William Bray may see the post and say what the evidence for his opinion is.

[Michael Larkin]

Originally Posted by Michael Larkin

Alex's questions:

Why would we think there's this underlying reality to quantum physics--to these equations and mathematical propositions? Isn't that just as much subjected to this reality-creating consciousness as everything else?

So aren't we in an infinite loop of abstraction, and can we really get out of it by saying, "oh no, I put my finger on it--its this mathematical equation over here; this is somehow more real than something else"?

Alex, maybe you have a point. But one thing I will say is that I recommend you, and everyone else here, investigate Bray's ideas before coming to possibly untoward conclusions. I have downloaded the free Kindle sampler for his book Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, Eternal Consciousness, Religion, and the Human Soul, which incidentally costs peanuts. The sampler is extraordinarily generous in its extent, and reading it might help head off any untoward assumptions as to what he is trying to say. Within the first few pages he covers much of what was said in the interview.

For the benefit of anyone who doesn't know, one doesn't need Kindle hardware to read Kindle samplers and books: one just needs to download from Amazon the version of Kindle software that is suitable for one's particular hardware platform--for most people, probably a Windows-based PC.

I note that Bray's use of what he calls Standard English is not of a high standard; he doesn't use punctuation and grammar very well and this can introduce unintended ambiguity. One sometimes has to read very carefully to extract what one hopes is his intended meaning. That said, I'm finding it intriguing so far, and when I have finished the sampler, may well be in a better position to make an informed comment. Considering the low price of the Kindle book, I wouldn't be surprised if I end up buying it regardless.