One More James Randi Email

[alextsakiris]

James Randi Email Regarding Regarding Rupert Sheldrake | Skeptiko Blog

[David Bailey]

Alex,

I would strongly suggest you do as others have suggested, and leave Randi alone for now. He is not interested in real research - he has far too much reputation wrapped up in that organisation of his. He may also have the resources to take you to court in one way or another, and he could find enough 'expert witnesses' to back him to the hilt.

I would suggest that you make the experiment as watertight as possible, and try to publish it.

David

[alextsakiris]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Alex,

I would strongly suggest you do as others have suggested, and leave Randi alone for now. He is not interested in real research - he has far too much reputation wrapped up in that organisation of his. He may also have the resources to take you to court in one way or another, and he could find enough 'expert witnesses' to back him to the hilt.

I would suggest that you make the experiment as watertight as possible, and try to publish it.

David

You're missing the point.

[Chris Noble]

Originally Posted by alextsakiris

You're missing the point.

No. You are missing the point.

Why would YOU want to do the test as opposed to having an independent research trained in animal behavior conduct research? This seems very suspicious? especially since I?m not asking you to risk your million dollars.

Why do you think that the MDC and having the trials done by independent scientists are two mutually exclusive alternatives.

If you could take the time to read and understand Randi's words then you might understand.

Randi even gave the example of the BBC homeopathy attempt at the MDC. The research was conducted by independent scientists.

Moreover, it directly contradicts your earlier statement:

No, it doesn't.

?So, it wouldn?t be me doing the test. It would be someone like Chris French or Wiseman, or some other scientist with the proper credentials. Plenty of places could do this sort of thing, and we always have it done out of house. We don?t do the tests ourselves. We always turn it over to a lab or to an association, organization, college, whatever, who will do the experimentation, the whole run on the thing, and announce the results at the end of it.? (http://www.skeptiko.com/blog/?p=7)

Randi did not do the experiments on the "memory of water". He handed that over to independent scientists. They did the experiments.

If you can come up with a protocol and apply for the MDC you can have the actual experiments done by somebody like Clive Wynne if you want.

The extra factors in the MDC is that you have to agree to the claims, the protocol and the definition of success before the experiments are done.

[Chris Noble]

Originally Posted by alextsakiris

James Randi Email Regarding Regarding Rupert Sheldrake | Skeptiko Blog

I like the switcheroo here.

Alex puts up videos on youtube claiming that dogs are psychic and makes several press releases.
Randi encourages Alex to apply for the MDC.

Now Alex tries to make out that Randi is the one making the scientific claims.

[Ersby]

I'm a bit lost by all this huffing and puffing on Alex's part. Is see it like this:

(a) you believe the MDC is a scientific test, in which case the fact that nobody's won it is strong evidence against psi, or

(b) you believe that the MDC isn't a scientific test, so that the fact that nobody's won it has no bearing on the existence of psi.

I'm in the (b) camp, myself, and I don't see that Alex has achieved anything with this episode.

[Chris Noble]

Originally Posted by Ersby

I'm a bit lost by all this huffing and puffing on Alex's part. Is see it like this:

(a) you believe the MDC is a scientific test, in which case the fact that nobody's won it is strong evidence against psi, or

(b) you believe that the MDC isn't a scientific test, so that the fact that nobody's won it has no bearing on the existence of psi.

I'm in the (b) camp, myself, and I don't see that Alex has achieved anything with this episode.

The way I see it the MDC is designed to scientifically test specific paranormal claims made by specific people. It is not designed to answer more general and probably open-ended unfalsifiable ideas about "psi" in general. How can you falsify "psi"?

Alex has made specific paranormal claims that are exactly of the type that the MDC is designed to test. If the videos he has put up on youtube are indicative of what the dogs does with reasonable controls and reasonable randomisation then he shouldn't have any trouble winning the MDC.

[Larry Boy]

Originally Posted by Chris Noble

The way I see it the MDC is designed to scientifically test specific paranormal claims made by specific people. It is not designed to answer more general and probably open-ended unfalsifiable ideas about "psi" in general.

The problem with the challenge is that a lot of skeptics, including Randi himself, see 80+ years of scientific research into psychic phenomena by hundreds of independent scientists as useless as long as nobody has won the million dollars. This leads to a bizarre situation where one publicity-seeking challenge set up by a magician is seen as more important than thousands of scientific studies conducted at dozens of laboratories around the world.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Larry Boy

The problem with the challenge is that a lot of skeptics, including Randi himself, see 80+ years of scientific research into psychic phenomena by hundreds of independent scientists as useless as long as nobody has won the million dollars. This leads to a bizarre situation where one publicity-seeking challenge set up by a magician is seen as more important than thousands of scientific studies conducted at dozens of laboratories around the world.

Yes - why not apply the Randi test to the rest of science - particularly medical science and psychology, where some of the same issues may apply

David

[scomsjw]

Randi is a controversial figure. He's always been provocative, short-tempered and uncompromising but with good humour. Its hard not to like him. In these discussions you have to remember that he is now at the end of his career. He is eighty years old and only has a couple of assistants at the JREF. It is unreasonable to expect him to drop everything and get personally involved with Alex's experiment. I wish Alex would take the challenge - which would involve very little contact with Randi himself - and then provide a commentary on the way he is treated. He might be pleasantly surprised.