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  #1  
Old 06-02-2008, 01:05 AM
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Default Video Evidence Derren Brown Used Camera Trick in 'Séance' TV Programme?

Derren Brown, a very vocal skeptic of psychic claims, wrote before the screening of the 'seance'
programme. '.... the person in the spirit cabinet throws the tambourine thinking they are possessed by spirits, it is actually my suggestions that have encouraged them into involuntary behaviour. This is common to a lot of mediums who genuinely think they are communing with the dead – I suppose this could be called unconscious fraud. ...
(Derren Brown - Seance)

The evidence from the below clip strongly suggests Derren Brown used a video editing camera trick under the guise of hypnotism to imply hypnotism can explain séance phenomena. He is also misleading people into thinking that hypnotism can easily produce 'unconscious fraud' with no awareness afterwards (It is rare)

Evidence of Video Editing to achieve results
The important segment starts at 1.30 minutes There is a 2.86 second mismatch on video playback.
YouTube - Analysis Derren Brown Spirit Cabinet

In other words the footage from the top view camera was most probably filmed earlier, probably using someone else, no genuine hypnotism was used and the girl in cabinet told to be in a trance like state with eyes shut didn't see what actually occurred.

(Note: If you are confused you want to see the clip as originally broadcast – there is a lo-fi version at
YouTube - Derren Brown - Seance )

Which video editor would cut out a mere 2.86 seconds of footage? Very unlikely, video edits usually switch to another camera view to avoid possible jumps in footage. There are no visible jumps, this is evidence of a mismatch, a video trick.

Derren writes in his book 'would not want any participant to watch the [TV] show when it airs and see a different or radically re-edited version of what he understood to have happened".
Derren Brown - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The next video clip (not from 'Seance') is not good evidence of meaningful method of cheating but it is evidence Derren Brown's program makers are happy to use edits (in this case for no real benefit) misleading what the public into believing what they are seeing occurred exactly as seen on TV.
YouTube - Derren Brown fake?

Derren Brown writes prior to 'seance programme '.....I start by getting people to believe in me by using a powerful trick called cold reading . I get information from a subject while appearing to reveal facts about them. The spiritualist (in this case, me) starts by saying something like: 'I sense a connection to someone with a name like Laura, Nora. Does anyone know someone with a name like that?'

However his words do not match how it occurs in 'Séance' programme.
YouTube - Derren Brown cold reads in 'Seance'
The girl puts her hand on her chest at end, if you look closely , possibly implying she is Nora? (high percentage of people are named in UK are named after an elder member of family). The guy next could be shaking his head not in amazement but how obvious the trick is since he probably knows her name too? Regardless Derren isn't strictly cold reading if he knows her name, it is more like warm or hot reading, requiring no actual cold reading skill..

Does any of this matter?

Yes in my opinion because many skeptical opponents of medium/psychic claims often name psychic debunker Derren Brown as an example of a 'cold reader' who can do anything mediums have done under controlled conditions in past. Without bothering to read those experiments.to see how far short he falls e.g. he hand selects students, some successful mediums were tested by magicians and others very familiar with known seance conjuring tricks.

If Derren Brown is using video editing techniques when claiming he is using mental techniques, calling hot reading, cold reading, one must also question whether skeptics can legitimately trust him as an example of how effective cold reading methods are in comparison to psychics/mediums etc.

Last edited by Open Mind; 01-28-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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  #2  
Old 06-02-2008, 08:25 AM
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Incidentally, I read on the internet some time ago that Derren Brown consulted his friend Richard Wiseman before making the 'Séance' program.

Here is a Richard Wiseman video showing how easy it is too fool inexperienced people in dark. However such simple tricks as employed here (e.g. slipping ropes under loose arm rests) are inadequate to explain far more difficult conditions under which many mediums were tested , by experienced investigators, looking for fraudulent methods, who still reported some mediums as producing inexplicable phenomena under such conditions.
YouTube - Richard Wiseman Seance

Unconscious Fraud
What Derren Brown implies is 'unconscious fraud'...wasn't. He most probably tricked a young student into confused thinking for a brief moment that she perhaps threw a tambourine over a curtain.

'Unconscious fraud' was a claim that some mediums in a full trance state, a state reportedly with zero memory recall afterwards, were highly open to suggestion (similar to hypnosis) and if over keen to succeed in trials or be lead to cheat (as Derren Brown implies) would 'unconsciously' produce movements or take actions to achieve goal without memory recall of cheating.

Please note, if Derren Brown *could do* what he claimed '.. it is actually my suggestions that have encouraged them into involuntary behaviour .... ' ...far from debunking this if anything would support what early researchers were claiming. In fact, 'Skeptics' would have to review many historical case of alleged mediumship fraud as potentially just 'unconscious fraud' , if Derren could do what he claims

What has occurred often in the history of séance mediumship is that a even single (or few) incidents of alleged fraud or 'unconscious fraud' have later been presented by skeptic organizations as solid evidence of 'conscious fraud' of the medium. However ....

In doing so, would they also dismiss all cases of 'Dissociative Identity Disorder' (or Multiple Personality Disorder) where the patients and doctors claim the person has no memory recall of what took place earlier as also solid evidence of 'conscious fraud'?
Dissociative identity disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cases of deep trance fraudulent mediumship are perhaps not as simple as skeptical organisations like to imply.

In 1992 Richard Wiseman attempted to debunk the very controversial medium Eusapia Palladino 1908 trials by 3 experienced SPR investigators (2 of whom were experts in séance fraudulent methods) . Wiseman suggested an accomplice tampered with the hotel room locked door where there investigations took place (no evidence) and used a rod to fish and move objects (no evidence) and that the investigators somehow didn't notice any of this when much of the phenomena occurred in n good light, not pitch darkness.

Unlike Derren Brown 'séance', Palladino sat in front of the curtain (not behind it), the tamboruine was 3 feet away while she was tied to the chair by rope designed not to be easily undone. Can you untie someone using a rod through a door panel?

So ....whose opinion is more valid, Richard Wiseman's opinion & Derren Brown's (video) trick in pitch darkness OR Howard Thurston (almost as famous a magician as Harry Houdini in his day) who directly tested Eusapia Palladino in good light and concluded '...the phenomena were not due to fraud and were not performed by the aid of her feet, knees or hands ....'

I have nothing against debunking properly .... but frankly the quality of debunking by some famous skeptics over the years has been deeply flawed and just as extraordinarily implausible as a extraordinary paranormal claim!

One must conclude if such Victorian mediums were all cunning frauds (long before the days of video editing tricks) their methods of deception often seem far beyond what Richard Wiseman or Derren Brown achieved in their 'séances'

Last edited by Open Mind; 06-02-2008 at 08:50 AM.
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  #3  
Old 06-02-2008, 08:43 AM
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A bit off topic butif one looks closely Derren Brown appears to lose his 'staring challenge' in video clip?

YouTube - Staring competition

Look at the point 1min 49sceonds into this, does Derren Brown blink? It looks like it Possibly just a blurry image, would need to see original.

Also, is this the same guy in another video a few years later, older and with more hair? Most commentators on you tube don't seem to think so and defend Derren as always being a genuine exponent of mental influence and detection (yikes! ) .... did they look for wrinkle matches? Hmm

YouTube - Re: Derren Brown - Staring competition

Have fun

Last edited by Open Mind; 06-02-2008 at 09:02 AM.
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  #4  
Old 06-02-2008, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Open Mind
One must conclude if such Victorian mediums were all cunning frauds (long before the days of video editing tricks) their methods of deception often seem far beyond what Richard Wiseman or Derren Brown achieved in their 'séances'
No kidding. That might have something to do with the amount of time they spent at it.

~~ Paul
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  #5  
Old 06-07-2008, 10:29 AM
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Paul, the point is that Derren Brown used dishonest debunking.

He says immeadiately after his video trick '......This is what used to happen in many Victorian seances, the mediums would produce phenomena which were fraudulent, but she wasn't really a fraud because she had no memory of doing it, she had no awareness of doing it, she absolutely believed these were real . it is called 'unconscious fraud'

(1) This never happened in any victorian seance ever, the video camera hadn't been invented

(2) It was not an example of unconscious fraud

(3) Derren Brown was debunking extraordinary Victorian seance claims by making an extraordinary claim he can influence a young student to involuntary throw a tambourine over a curtain with no memory recall afterwards ....ethically this in fact is no different from presenting fake psychic phenomena as genuine.

After people noticed the timing mismatch, they contacted Derren Brown's forum ..... someone on forum got a reply from Derren ...

'......Spoken to DB. The clip you saw WAS the genuine footage from inside the cabinet. If there were any time discrepancies, that will be because the sequence from outside the cabinet, which we see first, presumably isn't a continuous shot and cuts back and forth a little. An extra couple of seconds could quite easily slip in or be cut out....

A video editor wouldn't make a 2 second cut in that end part, there is nothing different to cut to.

Why do paranormal debunkers often think it is legitimate to debunk paranormal claims to the public dishonestly? Debunking if accurate is fine, anything else is propaganda
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  #6  
Old 01-27-2011, 09:32 AM
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Default derren and love

was interested to see Derren's take of romance

YouTube - Familiar Faces - Science of Attraction

with the amount of psychology involved was amazed he'd never tackled this topic before
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  #7  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:52 AM
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I don't know about this camera business but I've been meaning to comment on this program for awhile. There are several issues I want to raise:

Derren Brown stated at the beginning of the program that spiritualism was started by the Fox sisters and they confessed that it was all fraud. What Derren Brown didn't tell the viewers was afterwards they both recanted their confessions. Margaret Fox said she was pressurised into making a confession:

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301051.txt

"Would to God," she said, in a voice that trembled with intense
excitement, "that I could undo the injustice I did the cause of
Spiritualism when, under the strong psychological influence of persons
inimical to it


We can see from the interview that Katie Fox agreed with her point of view

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301051.txt

"What does your sister Kate say of your present course?"

"She is in complete sympathy with me. She did not approve my course in
the pastÉ."



Arthur Conan Doyle also states in his book 'The History of Spiritualism' that Religious figures had been telling her that her powers were evil.

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301051.txt

On the top of alcoholic excitement and the frenzy
of hatred there was added religious fanaticism, for Margaret had been
lectured by some of the leading spirits of the Church of Rome and
persuaded, as Home had been also for a short time, that her own powers
were evil. She mentions Cardinal Manning as having influenced her mind
in this way, but her statements are not to be taken too seriously.


Sure Arthur states that her statements shouldn't be taken too seriously but what he points out is it was a combination of factors that made her do what she did, he also mentions family problems.

Does this conclusively prove that the Fox sisters were genuine? No it doesn't but the fact of the matter is that Derren Brown was trying to prove that spiritualism was a sham by mentioning that the Fox sisters stated that they were frauds. If he wanted to be objective and provide the viewers with the correct facts he should have given them complete information. The recanting of their confessions is important information and should not have been left out.

Secondly there is the absurd situation were Derren Brown puts one young woman behind a screen were she unconsciously throws a tambourine out. Even without Derren Brown present no serious person is going to take that example as a means of proving the paranormal because even if you haven't got a camera there somebody could just easily throw out the tambourine and lie about it. I have read 'Miracles and Modern Spiritualism' and I can't remember one séance being conducted like that, in fact some séances took place in broad daylight or in bright gaslight. If my memory serves me well Russell Wallace states in the book he saw a table lift two feet off the ground in bright gaslight, I think in that situation he also checked to see if there was anything attached to the table. Again this is not enough proof to indicate that this actually happened but Derren Brown was trying to debunk spiritualism by conducting séances under the same conditions. If he wants to try and debunk spiritualism in this manner he should do it in broad daylight or with the lights on indoors, futhermore I think most seances are held around a table not behind a screen (yes I know he did that afterwards but it was just a silly example).

Thirdly Russell Wallace mentions in 'Miracles and Modern Spiritualism' that people can be hypnotised into seeing things but what he mentions is that only a certain type of person is disposed in this way. Russell states that people like that are rare. As far as I'm aware Derren Brown specifically picks people who are vulnerable to hypnotism. I'm not sure whether Russell checked people for this vulnerability in his seances and I don't think he picked them all at random either (e.g. friends) but since this condition is rare we can assume that the people in the séances were not prone to hypnotism. I think Russell Wallace mentions this point as well, when you consider the large number of séances taking place and when you consider that people prone to hypnotism are in the minority you cannot keep making this a valid excuse. So again if Derren Brown wants to debunk he needs to stop picking people with this vulnerability.

Baring in mind the point of the program was not to hold a séance under scientific conditions, the point of the program was to try and replicate a séance under conditions which séances are supposed to be held and then to provide an explanation as to why they were fraudulent. In that sense Derren failed miserably he provided incomplete information and his explanations were far from conclusive because the conditions under which he held the séances were under specific conditions which were biased towards his objective and did not represent other conditions which lots of other séances were held.

Last edited by Draugar; 04-19-2012 at 12:00 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devlin Adventis O'Katie View Post
Debunk the debunkers. Then debunk those who debunk them who debunks that.

Where does the debunking end?
Most so-called debunking is just doubting. The standard of real debunking is pretty appalling, with people relying on the momentum of a group to reinforce their prejudices in the hope they eventually becomes 'fact'. There's almost nothing that resembles proper investigation.
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2012, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devlin Adventis O'Katie View Post
Debunk the debunkers. Then debunk those who debunk them who debunks that.

Where does the debunking end?
It ends where the proper research begins Any sincere researcher isn't trying to debunk .... however when along comes the 'debunker' who has an agenda to show something doesn't exist and twists former researchers work out of recognition .... there is little choice other than to debunk the debunker.
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  #10  
Old 04-20-2012, 06:16 AM
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BTW folks .... this thread is about 3 years old ... I hope the links still work ... I've not checked.
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