An ongoing argument about reincarnation.

[Interesting Ian]

I'm having an argument about reincarnation with a certain individual called James Webster who has written a book attacking reincarnation. He subscribes to the survival hypothesis, but just doesn't think that we reincarnate.

Discussion is here. I'm "Ian Wardell".

I'm not impressed remotely with his arguments, but wondered what other people think?

[JCearley]

Originally Posted by Interesting Ian

I'm not impressed remotely with his arguments, but wondered what other people think?

I defer to some channeled text from the SPR era on that topic. In more than a few cases someone has asked a being or a spirit guide, "What about reincarnation?"

My favorite response was, "I've heard of people who did that. I've never met one of them."

Something curious is that reincarnation researchers can find reasons to believe in reincarnation; spirit workers on rare occasion do mention it, but it seems like it's just not that common to come up. Maybe it's possible to reincarnate (or be placed in to an incarnation for one reason or another), but spirits find an infinite sea of interaction and art to be more enjoyable than coming back to Earth all the time?

[Ninshub]

Originally Posted by JCearley

spirit workers on rare occasion do mention it, but it seems like it's just not that common to come up.

I've found mediums frequently talk about it. Also on this site there are many testimonies by NDErs or mystics of different kinds who talk about reincarnation - things like how we have "soul families" and that we tend to have a group that we reincarnate with:
Videos of Sunday Speakers
See for example David Riblet May 8, 2011 (the quality of the videos varies).

A lot of NDErs (some amazing testimonies), and a few researchers (Atwater, Jody Long, Guggenheim - OK he's ADCs) have talked at this spiritual "church" which has an association with IANDS.

BTW, I've just noticed Eben Alexander is about to give a talk there (November 17), although the videos haven't been refreshed since February of this year.
The Virginia Beach Fellowship of the Inner Light Special Events

Just found this clip about "soul families" that is representative of what I've often heard by spiritual counselor/after-death communicator Terri Daniel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmwmCu9tU0c

[JCearley]

Ninshub,

Out of curiosity, how much of the material that you've mentioned came out prior to Ian Stevenson's works? Some of the channeled texts I mentioned came out well before reincarnation was even on the table of para-science. While I haven't done a more exhaustive search on the subject, I would find it curious that if reincarnation was supposed to be highly prevalent that it would go unnoticed by mediums until modern NDE, ADC or Stevenson's notes.

Similarly I saw it mentioned that prior to the theory of evolution being codified, a lot of spiritual work didn't mention that souls evolved--it was thought they just kind of went to a sphere of their choice and stayed there.

[Ninshub]

JCearly, you might be right. I don't know. But then I don't think all mediums or spiritual counsellors (most?) are aware of Stevenson's research either. And I know that's not what you're implying but of course the idea of reincarnation in the west predates the theory of evolution (Pythagoreans, Empedocles, Plato, etc.).

I haven't looked deeply into it but some people have looked into whether reincarnation ideas where involved in early Christianity.
Reincarnation and the Bible

I'm more familiar with NDE accounts mentioning it.

I was just going to make another separate post, but I'll add what I was going to post here.

----

I've read his arguments and looked over the book's description. Sounds like he's choosing the bits and pieces that fit his theory.

My best guess just from NDErs, mediums, in addition to what also seems to be the best explanation of the Stevenson data, is that souls choose to reincarnate, but not necessarily systematically, or on earth, etc.

Re: NDEs. I remember Betty Eadie being told in her NDE that reincarnation was not frequent (though it did occur). But most NDE accounts I've come across that mention reincarnation say it occurs.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict:

Then I was taken back through the light into the vibratory realm again. The whole process reversed, with even more information being given to me. I came back home, and I was given lessons on the mechanics of reincarnation. I was given answers to all those little questions I had.
Mellen-Thomas Benedict - near-death experiences

See here for a description of an NDE student, Amber Wells, who wrote a paper saying that in her study, 70 percent of the same of near-death experiencers demonstrated belief in reincarnation.
http://neardeathsite.com/reincarnation.php

I've just found this past Skeptiko thread on reincarnation and NDE and if the data fits:
http://forum.mind-energy.net/skeptik...her-stuff.html

See here for PMH Atwater's take on reincarnation:
Q & A with PMH Atwater

[Alexander1304]

Originally Posted by JCearley

Ninshub,

Out of curiosity, how much of the material that you've mentioned came out prior to Ian Stevenson's works? Some of the channeled texts I mentioned came out well before reincarnation was even on the table of para-science. While I haven't done a more exhaustive search on the subject, I would find it curious that if reincarnation was supposed to be highly prevalent that it would go unnoticed by mediums until modern NDE, ADC or Stevenson's notes.

Similarly I saw it mentioned that prior to the theory of evolution being codified, a lot of spiritual work didn't mention that souls evolved--it was thought they just kind of went to a sphere of their choice and stayed there.

Joshua,
On Michael Prescott's blog,professor Staffor Betty,author of "Afterlife Unveiled" quoted A.Conan-Doyle, in his classic "History of Spiritualism," (in 1924), “On the whole, it seems to the author that the balance of evidence shows that reincarnation is a fact, but not necessarily a universal one.”
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/m...d-rebirth.html

I think C.D.Broad also mentioned it in his "Lectures on Psychic research"(1962), but pretty briefly.He told something like :"it can be fair said that there are strongly suggestive cases of reincarnation in a few of best of them".I don't remember when Stevenson started his research

[Ninshub]

Re: SPR. In my version of the FWH Myers book, Human Personality and its Survival of Bodily Death (1903, abridged), Myers talks about the doctrine for just two pages (293-294), mentioning it in relation to a medium, Mlle Hélène Smith, studied by a skeptical Frenchman, Flournoy (1900), who claimed past lives both on earth and on other planets. Myers (rightfully, it seems to me) dismisses the case because of her giving indications as to having been very well-known personalities (e.g. Marie Antoinette) (and she lived on Mars!). But at least it shows a person at the time who entertained such thoughts - but of course this is late 19th century and she might have been aware of the theory of evolution.

I think I might have stumbled upon the quote you were referring to, JCearly (?).

Myers:

Meantime the question as to reincarnation has actually been put to a very few spirits who have given some real evidence of their identity. So far as I know, no one of these has claimed to know anything personally of such an incident; although all have united in saying that their knowledge was too limited to allow them to generalize on the matter.

Notice Myers' qualifier and that the question was put to a very few spirits.

Re: the bible and reincarnation. I haven't read the book yet but philosopher Robert Almeder considers the issue serious enough to devote 16 pages to it in his 1992 Death and Personal Survival.

[JCearley]

Originally Posted by Ninshub

I think I might have stumbled upon the quote you were referring to, JCearley (?).

Myers:

I don't recall the quote I mentioned coming from Myers since I've not read his book. It's close enough in sentiment though

[4vektor]

Originally Posted by Ninshub

Mellen-Thomas Benedict:

"Then I was taken back through the light into the vibratory realm again. The whole process reversed, with even more information being given to me. I came back home, and I was given lessons on the mechanics of reincarnation. I was given answers to all those little questions I had.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict - near-death experiences"

i think benedict's character, motivations and credibility are very questionable (to put it delicately) and therefore nothing he says belongs in the same discussion of reincarnation as stevenson's serious work.

NDERF Forum :: View topic - George Noory interviews Mellon Thomas

[MU!!]

Originally Posted by Alexander1304

Joshua,
On Michael Prescott's blog,professor Staffor Betty,author of "Afterlife Unveiled" quoted A.Conan-Doyle, in his classic "History of Spiritualism," (in 1924), “On the whole, it seems to the author that the balance of evidence shows that reincarnation is a fact, but not necessarily a universal one.”
Michael Prescott's Blog: Birth and rebirth

I think C.D.Broad also mentioned it in his "Lectures on Psychic research"(1962), but pretty briefly.He told something like :"it can be fair said that there are strongly suggestive cases of reincarnation in a few of best of them".I don't remember when Stevenson started his research

If you share a belief with Robert Schwartz in pre-birth, life challenge and planning sessions, then incarnation is a given.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEOugRfLVus