Buddhist Scholar and Meditation Researcher Says Skeptics Misinformed (Podcast)

[Yafi]

Originally Posted by GaSS PaNiCC

After reading this, i don't see how it is possible to take this guy seriously. After all he claims to be an expert in parapsychology and an actual scientist! So i think it is absurd if we don't. Yafi i think you need some clarification on how credible your sources are, and for next time please ensure they are the opinion of REAL scientists, as you like to put it.

The subject of the book is psi research, that is research concerning telepathy, clairvoyance and precognition. Radin claims that these phenomena are real and in the book he presents the evidence, which he thinks proves this.

The first thing to note about this book is that it aren’t a scientific report. It is readable by people without scientific training, though there are some technical words, so if expressions such as "confidence interval" make your head ache, then you might want to have a glass of aspirins within reach before opening this book.

The accessibility of the book has the consequence that the readers isn’t given details, and therefore actually can’t judge for themselves, whether the results that Radin claims have been obtained are for real or not. This means that it’s of paramount importance that the reader can trust that Radin reports everything truthfully and completely.

This led me to consider how trustworthy a reading of the book makes Radin seem. I’m just a layman in this connection: I probably know a bit more about statistics than the average working Joe, but I know way less than Radin. I’m not especially knowledgeable about psi research either, but a couple of the books on my bookshelf mentions the subject, and I’ve read a bit about it on the web.

As I mentioned, the document I was trying to locate - Scargle's essay - is referenced about 3/4 down the page I linked (which is just a review of the book and, apart from the one quote, not really related to the subject in hand). But the link is broken and I can't find the actual document. If you're really that interested in reading it go ahead and see if you can find it. I've had no luck.

[Yafi]

Originally Posted by GaSS PaNiCC

... THERE IS SOMETHING INTERESTING GOING ON THAT MERITS SERIOUS SCIENTIFIC ATTENTION...

True. And it's had serious scientific attention, and that attention hasn't borne fruit.

[Yafi]

Originally Posted by GaSS PaNiCC

Here's a quote from the great skeptic Carl Sagan, which now might finally influence you to consider PSI a possibility. This quote is also from the conscious universe.

At the time of writing there are three claims in the ESP field which, in my opinion, deserve serious study: (1) that by thought alone humans can (barely) affect random number generators in computers; (2) that people under mild sensory deprivation can receive thoughts or images "projected" at them; and (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation.

I never said Psi wasn't possible. What I said was there's no compelling evidence, and I for one am not going to believe in something without better evidence than what I've seen to date.

Yep, Carl Sagan said it - but he's been dead ten years. Let's see what's happened in that time:

Astronomy - a date for the age of the universe, discovery of dark matter, discovery of dark energy, discovery of over 100 extra-solar planets...

Physics - entanglement, quantum cryptography, (coming soon) the possible discovery of the Higgs boson (if it exists)...

Biology: Mapping of the human genome, new gene therapies, new drugs...

Parapsychology: Errrm...

[mcromer]

I for one am not going to believe in something without better evidence than what I've seen to date.

Then go read the material you have been directed to. Irreducible Mind for starters. Then read Michael Prescott's blog.

Yep, Carl Sagan said it - but he's been dead ten years. Let's see what's happened in that time:

Astronomy - a date for the age of the universe, discovery of dark matter, discovery of dark energy, discovery of over 100 extra-solar planets...

Physics - entanglement, quantum cryptography, (coming soon) the possible discovery of the Higgs boson (if it exists)...

Biology: Mapping of the human genome, new gene therapies, new drugs...

Parapsychology: Errrm...

You really ought to know something about a field, before you start attacking it.

From the past decade, give or take:

Triple-blind mediumship methodology developed
fMRI synchronization studies
Telephone telepathy studies
Presentiment studies well-replicated
Decision Augmentation Theory of psi introduced and extensively debated

[GaSS PaNiCC]

If he hasn't gotten the point now, it's clearly hopeless. So let's stop wasting out breathe shall we. I've clearly established that parapsychology is a developing field which needs to be further investigated as there are plenty experiments which have been replicated, where the results have come back positive. If you can find a valid way to disagree with me instead of declaring PSI not possible, which has not been established at all, then please by all means do.

[Yafi]

Originally Posted by mcromer

Then go read the material you have been directed to. Irreducible Mind for starters. Then read Michael Prescott's blog.




You really ought to know something about a field, before you start attacking it.

From the past decade, give or take:

Triple-blind mediumship methodology developed
fMRI synchronization studies
Telephone telepathy studies
Presentiment studies well-replicated
Decision Augmentation Theory of psi introduced and extensively debated

Triple-blind has been around for a lot longer than that, and it didn't originate in parapsychology. As for the rest: contribution of parapsychology to the sum of human knowledge = nil.

[Yafi]

Originally Posted by GaSS PaNiCC

If he hasn't gotten the point now, it's clearly hopeless. So let's stop wasting out breathe shall we. I've clearly established that parapsychology is a developing field which needs to be further investigated as there are plenty experiments which have been replicated, where the results have come back positive. If you can find a valid way to disagree with me instead of declaring PSI not possible, which has not been established at all, then please by all means do.

Oh, I've got your point. I dispute that much further investigation is actually needed, since several decades of investigation hasn't yielded anything positive. And as for the replicated experiments, you might ask yourself who's doing the replicating and why the results don't get published in reputable journals.

As for wasting breath... yeah. I came here thinking there might actually be some constructive discussion going on but it's more like a flat-earther meeting, with everyone sticking their fingers in their ears so they don't hear things they don't like. Knock yourselves out, guys - I'm outta here.

[mcromer]

I dispute that much further investigation is actually needed, since several decades of investigation hasn't yielded anything positive.

You obviously haven't read any of the research, to make such an ignorant statement.

And as for the replicated experiments, you might ask yourself who's doing the replicating and why the results don't get published in reputable journals.

That's simple. What you call the "reputable journals" are almost invariably completely closeminded to the possibility of psi phenomena.

As for wasting breath... yeah. I came here thinking there might actually be some constructive discussion going on but it's more like a flat-earther meeting, with everyone sticking their fingers in their ears so they don't hear things they don't like. Knock yourselves out, guys - I'm outta here.

You came in, not having read the research, not having read any important summaries (like Irreducible Minds), proceded to attack the research with vague, general smears, did not follow up with specifics or studies that support your position.

The people here called you on your lack of content, and you realized that you don't actually know any specifics, just the bullet-items from so-called "skeptics" who don't have an ounce of skepticism about materialism. And now you're taking your ball and going home.

[GaSS PaNiCC]

i'm glad i don't have to waste my time debating a close minded ignorant genius anymore.

[Troy]

Originally Posted by Yafi

Oh, I've got your point. I dispute that much further investigation is actually needed, since several decades of investigation hasn't yielded anything positive. And as for the replicated experiments, you might ask yourself who's doing the replicating and why the results don't get published in reputable journals.

As for wasting breath... yeah. I came here thinking there might actually be some constructive discussion going on but it's more like a flat-earther meeting, with everyone sticking their fingers in their ears so they don't hear things they don't like. Knock yourselves out, guys - I'm outta here.

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.