Skeptics ( Unwitting ) dupes?

[Sandy]

By the way, conspiracy is an artificially stigmatized word.

A conspiracy is a set of coordinated covert actions.

The official 9/11 story is a conspiracy theory, even if there's no reason to disbelieve it.

Certain Bush administration policies were carried out in a conspiratorial fashion. The domestic wiretapping program is one example, in which all the major telecom carriers were complicit.

Many of the WW2 code-breaking operations were performed in complete secrecy, and were apparently quite successful.

Colossus computer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some conspiracy stories are stupid, but conspiracies in general are happening all the time.


Sandy

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by Sandy

Project MKULTRA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Respected magician of that time, John Mulholland was on the payroll of the CIA and was involved in the MK-ULTRA mind control research in the 1950s

'....Gottlieb wanted Mulholland to teach intelligence operatives how to use the tools of the magician’s trade – sleight of hand and misdirection – to covertly administer drugs, chemicals and biological agents to unsuspecting victims....

The Sphinx and the Spy: The Clandestine World of John Mulholland

According to some a sub division of MKULTRA involved ESP research. Years before the same John Mulholland had written book discrediting psychic phenomena 'Beware Familiar Spirits' (1930s) , stating he was a close friend of Harry Houdini.

There could possibly be a connection between paranormal claims and secret service magicians debunking claims....

1898 - magician John E Wilkie becomes head of the US Secret Service until 1912
1902 – magician Houdini (probably connected with secret services - see previous post for link) helps to found Society of American Magicians
1906 - magician John W Sargent (an expert on picking locks) one of the original founders becomes SAM president. Houdini is vice president.
1911 – John W Sargent is giving a young John Mulholland magic lessons
1917 – John W Sargent is personal secretary to Houdini
1918 – Harry Houdini is president of the Society of American Magician until his death in 1926
1920 – Approximately around this time Harry Houdini has secret service discrediting psychic claims publicly, he withholds information at the House office building in Washington, that could link his group of debunkers to the secret services.

In the UK magician William Goldston, a close friend of Harry Houdini tells magician Harry Price .... that Houdini is a secret believer in some psychic claims. This is also confirmed by at least one letter written from Houdini to Harry Price. Also magician William Goldston assures Harry Price that J N Maskelyne is a clandenstine believer in psychic phenomena.

In otherwords at that time the leading debunker of psychic phenomena in the UK (Maskelyne) and the leading debunker of psychic phenomena in the US (Houdini) are possibly both saying different things in private to others magicians than in public.

A common theme in today's conspiracy theories is the best way to discredit a true phenomena would be to promote false claims.

'.... Although the magicians in CSICOP have attacked psychics, they have said very little about people such as Kreskin,26 David Hoy, or other similar entertainers who are well connected in the magic community. Many mentalists maintain that performers should claim genuine abilities even if they do not believe in them . Certainly Randi, Ray Hyman, and Martin Gardner are well aware of this situation, yet they rarely, if ever, criticize publicly such performers. Hyman holds membership in the Psychic Entertainers Association, which has a number of members who encourage performers to falsely claim psychic abilities.....

CSICOP and the Skeptics: An Overview by George P. Hansen

Have the secret services been promoting false paranormal claims to discredit paranromal topics?

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Uri Geller (in a book on his web site, http://www.uri-geller.com/books/magi...c/chapter1.htm ) is said to claim the reason Randi et al went after him to debunk him is because he claimed to by psychic and not a mentalist. If I remember right, some magicians wanted Uri to tell them how he did his tricks and Uri maintained he didn't know how he did them and that is how he became a target.

Did Kreskin and Hoy claim to be psychics and not mentalists?

If you were "in" with the community of magicians you were not attacked, it was professional curtesy not a conspiracy.

There could possibly be a possible connection between paranormal claims and secret service magicians debunking claims....

As a law enforcement agency, the secret service was probably at that time responsible for protecting the public from fraud. They might have gone too far in their zeal and ignorance and debunked some genuine psychics. Again I don't see this as conspiracy. During that era there was not the same level of attention to intelligence operations and need for secrecy that there was during WWII. I think it ulikely the government at that time was afraid of psychics stealing state secrets. If you look at the history of remote viewing it isn't until the 1960's that the US intelligence agencies started worrying about things like that. It was because of reserach going on in the Soviet Union that they felt they had to do research into remote viewing and remote influencing. It was not because they actually believed in psi before hand. (See Ingo Swann's web site for more info http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages/2.html)

[Open Mind]

Originally Posted by anonymous

Uri Geller (in a book on his web site, Uri Geller ) is said to claim the reason Randi et al went after him to debunk him is because be claimed to by psychic and not a mentalist. If I remember right, some magicians wanted Uri to tell them how he did his tricks and Uri maintained he didn't know how he did them and that is how he became a target.

Do you think Geller is genuine? I tend to think not. But it is hard to say for certain, he is a showman ....for example a singer might mime or use electronic pitch correction but it doesn't prove they cannot sing at all ... humans do cheat to embellish their career or become more successful. Targ and Puthoff did not actually support Geller's metal bending claim.... they supported his remote viewing claim.

I am not much of a believer in the Geller type macro-psychokinesis under personal command either....frankly I think it seems more often reported that macro physical phenomena does not follow the willpower of any individual ...more often it is a person or persons claiming 'this phenomena happens around us' rather than 'I moved that with my mind' ...the phenomena often appears to have a mind and will of its own.

Also Anonymous, from your point of view, as a spiritualist, Daniel Dunglas Home or other spiritualists tended not to claim they had any personal psychic power, they claimed discarnates produced phenomena around them....so how do you equate Geller's claim he can will something to occur with the power of his conscious effort? Did any of the better spiritualist mediums of the past claim this? (I don't know) I know eastern martial arts people claim itm if so ... will one please force Randi to test?

The problem with the Geller type of personal willpower claim is that it could win Randi's prize rather easily? ... I suspect it is a red herring claim. Probably if no one had heard of Geller, no one would have heard of Randi. These type of claims are the headline grabbers ... but the real psi may be something less impressive.

If you were "in" with the community of magicians you were not attacked, it was professional curtesy not a conspiracy.

That would indeed explain most instances but since this is a conspiracy topic ...

As a law enforcement agency, the secret service was probably at that time responsible for protecting the public from fraud.

Either Mina Crandon was a fraud .... or some were trying to make her look a fraud. ....let me post about this case .. next post ... need a break

[Sandy]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Do you think Geller is genuine? I tend to think not. But it is hard to say for certain, he is a showman ....for example a singer might mime or use electronic pitch correction but it doesn't prove they cannot sing at all ... humans do cheat to embellish their career or become more successful. Targ and Puthoff did not actually support Geller's metal bending claim.... they supported his remote viewing claim.

Basically, I agree, however I do have one tidbit to throw out there.

Dean Radin claimed in a blog post to have bent a spoon at a PK party:

Radin's report about it
Spoon bending evidence by Dean Radin - Parapsychology articles and blog

I generally consider Radin to be pretty credible, and while I admit that it looks like Geller will cheat sometimes, there are many who claim to be utterly convinced by him. Perhaps he is a case similar to that Italian medium who would cheat whenever possible, but also appeared to have genuine abillities? Palladino I believe the name was? Michael Prescott blogs about her often.

Sandy

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by Open Mind

Do you think Geller is genuine? I tend to think not.

What are you basing your opinion on? Statements by Randi?

To what extent have you investigated the matter?
Have you read the book I linked to?
Have you looked at the testimonials by magicians and scientists on his web site?

http://www.uri-geller.com/index.htm
http://www.uri-geller.com/books/magi...c/chapter1.htm
http://www.uri-geller.com/uri-biography/uribiog4.htm
http://www.uri-geller.com/uri-biography/uribiog3.htm

But it is hard to say for certain, he is a showman ....for example a singer might mime or use electronic pitch correction but it doesn't prove they cannot sing at all ... humans do cheat to embellish their career or become more successful. Targ and Puthoff did not actually support Geller's metal bending claim.... they supported his remote viewing claim.

I am not much of a believer in the Geller type macro-psychokinesis under personal command either....frankly I think it seems more often reported that macro physical phenomena does not follow the willpower of any individual ...more often it is a person or persons claiming 'this phenomena happens around us' rather than 'I moved that with my mind' ...the phenomena often appears to have a mind and will of its own.

Also Anonymous, from your point of view, as a spiritualist, Daniel Dunglas Home or other spiritualists tended not to claim they had any personal psychic power, they claimed discarnates produced phenomena around them....so how do you equate Geller's claim he can will something to occur with the power of his conscious effort? Did any of the better spiritualist mediums of the past claim this? (I don't know) I know eastern martial arts people claim itm if so ... will one please force Randi to test?

Physical mediums claim one type of phenomena. Psychic's like Uri claim another type of phenomena. On the surface it looks like two different phenomena.

Dean Radin's account of spoon bending.
http://www.deanradin.com/spoon.htm

After 5 minutes of intently watching the woman attempting to bend a similar spoon, to my surprise my spoon started to bend! In accordance with previous claims I had read, the bowl momentary felt like putty, and I easily pinched the bowl over as shown. It immediately hardened up, and it felt cold throughout. I used a thumb and one finger to make this bend, with hardly any force. I immediately checked my fingers for noticeable marks after the bend, and there were none, confirming that I had not unconsciously forced the bowl to bend. All of my attempts to repeat this effect later, both with and without the use of force, failed. Examination of the bend reveals it to be clean and smooth, with none of the characteristic cracking or discoloration that appears in spoons that are forced to bend using tools. I have no easy explanation for this phenomenon, but I cannot deny my own experience. This bend was not due to a conjuring trick or to enhanced strength that can potentially arise in certain dissociated states.

The problem with the Geller type of personal willpower claim is that it could win Randi's prize rather easily? ... I suspect it is a red herring claim. Probably

What I've read by people who try to claim the prize is that they are obstructed by Randi through delays and outright rejection without testing ever occuring, so no one can win his prize easily or otherwise.

if no one had heard of Geller, no one would have heard of Randi. These type of claims are the headline grabbers ... but the real psi may be something less impressive.


That would indeed explain most instances but since this is a conspiracy topic ...


Either Mina Crandon was a fraud .... or some were trying to make her look a fraud. ....let me post about this case .. next post ... need a break

The problem with debunkers is they are too often guilty of the fraud they charge the psychic with.
http://forum.mind-energy.net/showthread.php?p=10334
I don't think that by itself is evidence of a conspiracy.

[CKava]

Originally Posted by anonymous

What are you basing your opinion on? Statements by Randi?

To what extent have you investigated the matter?
Have you read the book I linked to?
Have you looked at the testimonials by magicians and scientists on his web site?

So to come to your conclusion on whether Geller is a fraud or not you base your opinion primarily on:

- His books.
- Testimonials from his website.

Dear God... there is a serious lack of critical thinking here! Are you expecting Geller to write in his books 'yes I am a fraud' or post negative comments on his website? For someone so fond of conspiracies it's rather telling that you accept outright claims from an extremely dubious character who just so happens to be promoting something you buy into.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by CKava

So to come to your conclusion on whether Geller is a fraud or not you base your opinion primarily on:

- His books.
- Testimonials from his website.

Dear God... there is a serious lack of critical thinking here! Are you expecting Geller to write in his books 'yes I am a fraud' or post negative comments on his website? For someone so fond of conspiracies it's rather telling that you accept outright claims from an extremely dubious character who just so happens to be promoting something you buy into.

I wonder if sometimes we let this idea of fraud take over this subject. I mean, I don't think any subject could advance - at least through its earliest stages - if everyone just shouted fraud at every new result, and every new practitioner!

Is it so unreasonable to evaluate someone's work - at least in part - by reading what they have to say - so unreasonable that we laugh at someone because they say that is what they have done! Even if you are not sure whether to believe them, don't you start by reading some what they have to say?

Posting here for some time has made me acutely aware of the double standards that seem to operate in this area, as compared with the rest of science. I certainly know that Randi can be very devious, and that he doesn't really do much research or testing, so I would not take much notice of his opinions. My frustration is that I see incredibly little thoughtful criticism of psi experiments and concepts - just bluster!

David

[anonymous]

Originally Posted by CKava

So to come to your conclusion on whether Geller is a

I didn't state my conclusion on Geller.

I asked Open Mind how he came to his.

How did you come to yours?

fraud or not you base your opinion primarily on:

- His books.

The book was not written by Geller. It is ambiguous in it's conclusions but he puts it on his web site anyway. This is exactly why I don't trust skeptics. You already know your beliefs are infallible so you don't have to investigate facts and evidence. That is not scientific.

Why did you comment on it with out even looking at it?

Why should anyone believe anything you post when you don't invesigate the subject matter before commenting.

- Testimonials from his website.

The testimonials are attributed to prominent people not Geller. If they were false there would be evidence. For example, Randi has had to retract fase statements, and people have denied they made statements Randi has attributed to them. Can you find anone denying Geller's testimonials?

Dear God... there is a serious lack of critical thinking here! Are you expecting Geller to write in his books 'yes I am a fraud' or post negative comments on his website? For someone so fond of conspiracies it's rather telling that you accept outright claims from an extremely dubious character who just so happens to be promoting something you buy into.

You are jumping to conclusions about my opinions, and the references I cite.

It is your critical thinking that is lacking. You are basing your conclusions on unsupportable assumptions.

[Open Mind]

Yes I was aware of Radin's claim .....

'.....All of my attempts to repeat this effect later, both with and without the use of force, failed.

So Radin could not re-produce the effect by mental or physical conscious effort ... the effect seem much more unconscious and collective since he was in a large group of people. ..... this is not the conscious willpower type of effect that Geller is telling people to do, to command it with a 'bend! bend! bend!' or 'move! move!' he says on his compass trick (if it is a trick) ...

Is the brain a local filter of a non-local consciousness?
Let us consider the observer/measurement problem in quantum physics differently from normal .. let me suggest that the act of physically observing reduces the probability of psychic-like phenomena occuring ... and the phenomena is more likely to occur when in a less closely or 'consciously' observed mental state. This is somewhat compatible with what Radin is reporting and is not compatible with what Geller is claiming to the masses .... Geller is implying conscious willpower produces the effect, which has become very popular belief amongst the 'new age' movement, that we can shape the universe to our personal will.....but are these effect more unconscious and more collective?

Of course to physically 'observe' most often requires us to use light. ... so I am willing to consider seriously claims of physical phenomena that have occured in pitch dark, lower light or red light seance rooms with experts in fraud detection sometimes coming to the conclusion there is no plausible 'normal' (conjuring) explanation for what occurred ......however the area could be dominated by fraud for various reasons including the best way to discredit such phenomena would be to use other tricksters/magicians to promote faked versions.

Folks don't trust anyone ....trust yourself... read both sides of the cases ... make your own minds up. Perhaps you might come to the conclusion that either (1) There was a conspiracy to present fake psychic phenomena as real (2) There was a conspiracy to present real psychic phenomena as fake (3) Both have occurred. ..... looking at the history of claims my personal conclusion, at this point, would be (3)