NDE Question

[sr332603]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Yes, pilots report NDE-like experiences (not sure if they are identical though), but I am not sure what that proves either way.

This comment of yours is quite interesting to me. To break down what I perceive to be your hypothesis: a certain percentage of people who "die" and are resuscitated report similar experiences, feelings, memories, etc. and remember them as having happened during the brief period of minimal brain activity. You take these claims to mean that their "spirit" crossed over to an alternate realm or dimension and conclude that this is evidence for life after death.

And yet, we have reports of people who are decidedly not near death, but just have decreased levels of oxygen in the brain reporting the same experiences. From my perspective, this leads me to believe that the consistency of NDE experiences is better explained as a function of the process that the brain goes through as it is deprived of oxygen than evidence of a supernatural or paranormal realm.

And yet, your response to the fact that pilots experience NDE symptoms when they are decidedly not near death is you are "not sure what that proves either way."

Also, you have yet to give me any compelling reason to believe that 100% of the NDE experience in any given patient occurs during short periods of low brain activity. You simply say "there is no reason to believe that it occurs at any time other than when it was reported to occur." I'll ask again - exactly what frame of reference are these people using to base the timeframe of the events off of? A perfectly accurate internal clock? Are they checking their watches while braindead? Have you ever correctly identified the exact time of a dream?

[David Bailey]

sr332603,

You are greatly extrapolating what I really feel about NDE's. I am very unconvinced with the conventional idea that consciousness is just some sort of computation going on in the brain. Therefore my hypothesis (to the extent that I have one) would be that consciousness does not exist in the brain, and that when the brain stops functioning, its grip on its consciousness slips.

In a sense, the pilots are also near death - keep the centrifuge going a bit longer and they would indeed be dead - that is why I am not sure what it proves either way. I mean, I don't think NDE's are consistent with an orthodox Christian viewpoint, if that is what you mean - surely an omniscient God would presumably know whether someone was actually going to die or not - every NDE would represent a sort of divine mistake - which is absurd.

David

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by FastEddieB

Let me add, "that are beyond what chance might predict".

What I mean is, there may be thousands and thousands of NDE's, the vast majority of which are trivial, or lacking (or just plain wrong) in detail. If you sift through ALL NDE reports (and I'll assume the majority of mundane ones don't even get reported) and just pick out the handful that are "interesting", I think you are bound to come up with isolated cases that seem remarkable.

Its all very interesting, but I remain unconvinced.

Are they wrong, or just not testable?

David

[FastEddieB]

Are they wrong, or just not testable?

Claims of angels or God or Satan or tunnels or departed family members or whatever would be untestable - not wrong, but to my mind trivial.

Claims of doctors or staff doing things they did not, in fact, do are very testable.

My mom (now deceased) had all sorts of lucid visions after a heart attack - the one that struck her the most was that she was in a play and actors kept walking past her room, sometimes entering it as part of the play. Kinda interesting on one level, but not "interesting" in the sense that it likely pointed to anything real.

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by FastEddieB

Claims of angels or God or Satan or tunnels or departed family members or whatever would be untestable - not wrong, but to my mind trivial.

Claims of doctors or staff doing things they did not, in fact, do are very testable.

My mom (now deceased) had all sorts of lucid visions after a heart attack - the one that struck her the most was that she was in a play and actors kept walking past her room, sometimes entering it as part of the play. Kinda interesting on one level, but not "interesting" in the sense that it likely pointed to anything real.

Well, yes - but it was not clearly 'wrong'. I mean, if we actually could look down on this life from outside, I guess it might seem rather like that.

I mean, I agree, it is hard to know exactly, but clearly most NDE's will not be verifiable. I also think that it is interesting that these things only happen very close to death. I mean, say someone is diagnosed with a terminal condition, death may dominate their thoughts, but as far as I know they don't get NDE's until possibly the final stages - so I mean, this is not just suggestibility.

David

[sr332603]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

Well, yes - but it was not clearly 'wrong'. I mean, if we actually could look down on this life from outside, I guess it might seem rather like that.

I mean, I agree, it is hard to know exactly, but clearly most NDE's will not be verifiable. I also think that it is interesting that these things only happen very close to death. I mean, say someone is diagnosed with a terminal condition, death may dominate their thoughts, but as far as I know they don't get NDE's until possibly the final stages - so I mean, this is not just suggestibility.

David

But, again, consider it from a simpler perspective. Considering that all NDEs (other than fighter pilots) happen near death (hence the name), isn't it more logical to assume that it is simply the process of the brain shutting down? This certainly is the only hypothesis that gels with the claims of the pilots. Why posit a different, unknowable, unreachable, untestable, unseeable afterlife of which no other evidence exists?

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by sr332603

But, again, consider it from a simpler perspective. Considering that all NDEs (other than fighter pilots) happen near death (hence the name), isn't it more logical to assume that it is simply the process of the brain shutting down? This certainly is the only hypothesis that gels with the claims of the pilots. Why posit a different, unknowable, unreachable, untestable, unseeable afterlife of which no other evidence exists?

No - it is rather a bizarre hypothesis really. For example, after relatively mild head problems, amnesia is common. The NDE has to both happen and be remembered! Some of these people are in theatre - presumably full of anesthetic!

I see this whole issue as not really about an afterlife (BTW, I am not a religious believer) but about the question, what is consciousness.

Why do you see the pilots as fundamentally different from the cardiac arrest sufferers? In both cases, the brain is brought close to death, the only real question is that one is accidental, and the other is deliberate! Also, presumably the pilots don't go as far.

David

[sr332603]

Originally Posted by David Bailey

No - it is rather a bizarre hypothesis really. For example, after relatively mild head problems, amnesia is common. The NDE has to both happen and be remembered! Some of these people are in theatre - presumably full of anesthetic!

I'm sure not all NDE experiences are remembered, David, for the very reasons that you cite. Simply because some are does not mean that it is evidence of a non-physical source of consciousness.

I would also like to point out that you can look across the natural world and find different components of "consciousness" in other animal species. While we can never prove that they have an internal dialogue like we do, there is evidence of a sense of self in different primate and bird species, there is evidence that animals dream, feel a sense of loss or sadness, feel a sense of happiness, etc. This gives credence, in my view, to the hypothesis that consciousness is an evolved trait. While it may not have been specifically selected for, it could be an emergent property from a collection of selected traits.

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by sr332603

This gives credence, in my view, to the hypothesis that consciousness is an evolved trait. While it may not have been specifically selected for, it could be an emergent property from a collection of selected traits.

I think we can be quite confident that consciousness was selected.

~~ Paul

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I think we can be quite confident that consciousness was selected.

~~ Paul

Consciousness can be evolved without it being wholly produced in the brain. The communication mechanism in the brain may well have evolved.

Yes, sr332603, I am essentially certain that most, maybe all animals are conscious approximately as we are. We evolved from them, and obviously share many features of consciousness with them. Maybe they also have NDE's. As I said, I certainly don't come at any of this from a religious perspective.

You seem very fond of the shutting down hypothesis. Perhaps you are thinking of what happens in a computer, which shuts down in an orderly way ready for next time. For a better analogy, imagine something less controlled - coffee spilled into the machine, a lightning spike down the mains lead, or a memory chip malfunction.

I would say, no mechanism for the permanent shutdown of the brain can have evolved, because it would confer no selective advantage - the organism is on its way out anyway!

David