The Life Between Lives - Dr. Michael Newton

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by David

Of course people relate these phenomena to QM, they know of it, whether they understand the math or not.

Which gives us the old quote about QM being mysterious and consciousness being mysterious and so they just must be the same mystery.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by majinrevan

Give me an example of how such "prompting" would occur.

See the transcript I linked to above. It's just full of prompting. As far as other adults are concerned, what if they spend time talking about reincarnation, past lives, life after death, heaven, etc.? Do you think the child wouldn't get lots of hints about it? It's the same as talking about religion. Little children have lots of idea about god before they ever start attending religious school.

I don't know about this particular case.
There are many other cases in which the identity is validated and the coincidence hypothesis is absurd.

It's not a coincidence, it's a search! It would be a coincidence if the child wrote a story and then at the next cocktail party the parents found a person who fit the story. The stories I've read about Indian kids have the parents undertaking a search to find the other family who best fits the details.

Have you considered the possibility that QM really does provide a piece of
the puzzle?

It's certainly a possibility, but name-dropping it is just a gambit to make me equate the mysteries of QM with the mysteries of consciousness.

~~ Paul

[David Bailey]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

Which gives us the old quote about QM being mysterious and consciousness being mysterious and so they just must be the same mystery.

~~ Paul

Tell me honestly - do you think the link is as tenuous as that? How do you presonally rate the idea that QM reality has something to do with consciousness (leaving out psi)(0-10)?

David

[majinrevan666]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

See the transcript I linked to above. It's just full of prompting. As far as other adults are concerned, what if they spend time talking about reincarnation, past lives, life after death, heaven, etc.? Do you think the child wouldn't get lots of hints about it? It's the same as talking about religion. Little children have lots of idea about god before they ever start attending religious school.

Let's draw a plausible scenario of this then.
The parents are obsessed with reincarnation, they talk about it day and
night, they even inadvertently brain wash the child into believing that he's reincarnated.
The child then thinks that he's the reincarnation of someone.

And all of this gets us where exactly?
How does this hypothesis explain anything regarding the particular identity
the child describes as having been, the correct identification of several
places his past life personality knew, the correct identification of past life
acquaintances and so on?

It's not a coincidence, it's a search! It would be a coincidence if the child wrote a story and then at the next cocktail party the parents found a person who fit the story. The stories I've read about Indian kids have the parents undertaking a search to find the other family who best fits the details.

But finding the family is merely an initial step.
The child is then supposed to be asked questions and give details to validate
his claims.

[majinrevan666]

YouTube - GhostWatching's Channel

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by David

Tell me honestly - do you think the link is as tenuous as that? How do you presonally rate the idea that QM reality has something to do with consciousness (leaving out psi)(0-10)?

Aside from the possibility that it introduces randomness into brain function: 1.

~~ Paul

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

Originally Posted by majinrevan

Let's draw a plausible scenario of this then.
The parents are obsessed with reincarnation, they talk about it day and
night, they even inadvertently brain wash the child into believing that he's reincarnated.
The child then thinks that he's the reincarnation of someone.

And all of this gets us where exactly?
How does this hypothesis explain anything regarding the particular identity
the child describes as having been, the correct identification of several
places his past life personality knew, the correct identification of past life
acquaintances and so on?

The matching of the child's story to actual deceased persons is a separate issue. What doesn't impress me is the child's story per se, its consistency over time, any consistency between the stories of different children, etc.

Once the story is told, then matching it to a deceased person is an interesting undertaking. My concern here is that it's a giant cold reading enterprise.

But finding the family is merely an initial step.
The child is then supposed to be asked questions and give details to validate
his claims.

Yes, that is fine. It's even finer if it's done double-blind.

~~ Paul

[majinrevan666]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

What doesn't impress me is the child's story per se, its consistency over time, any consistency between the stories of different children, etc.

I can't see what makes you think that it isn't impressive.
Not all the stories come from countries whose belief in reincarnation is prevalent.
This is a good example:
YouTube - Soul Survivor - Reincarnated World War II pilot? (1)

Yes, that is fine. It's even finer if it's done double-blind.

I don't know about double blind, but I do know of a case in which the
family of the deceased tried to trick the child and failed.

[Danny_D]

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

I've heard of the first and third ones, but that may be because I spent a few years in the TM movement.

The question is: How common are these specific remarks and what is the context as far as older people suggesting these ideas? In that transcript I linked to, for example: "Antoinette then asked me to go to my soul group."

How common? Accoring to Newton ALL hes subjects give similar report of the general process a soul passes through in the spirit realm after a life on earth. Every soul has different lessons to learn, and are in different stages of development, but the general scheme of things is the same. Thats what makes it interesting. If there were cases where one didnt meet the "elders" or know some things that are common knowledge in the spirit realm, or give a totally different description of them, then that would be a deal braker.

I dont have the full transcripts of all of hes patients, I only have the book where he has collected the most interesting ones. Thats why I think it would be great if Newton appeared on Skeptiko, so Alex could enquire more on the whole process.

Again, I dont think a professional hypnotherapist would give suggestive question like "tell me how understading and gentel the elders are", but rather "describe what you see?", "tell me what happens next?" or even more specific questions like "tell me what happens when you meet the elders?", but that still wouldnt explain the consistency.

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

My theory is that it's a giant cold reading exercise. But I leave it to the parapsychologists to work on theories of reincarnation. I am not suggesting they all quit and become talk show hosts.

~~ Paul

hmmm...maybe were talking past each other.

I'm asking you for a theory of why the similar reports in Newtons cases.
So far you have given me "we have similar brains" and similar culture.
Honestly, do you think that is a sufficient explanation for the consistency?

[David Bailey]

I think this discussion demonstrates yet again how useless the "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" concept really is. It amounts to discarding any evidence that is not (at least) generated under laboratory conditions. It doesn't matter how much evidence is generated - every piece is considered equally suspect.

Note that there is no objective criterion for deciding what is an extraordinary claim, or how much extra evidence need be produced.

If children were studied, say to test if they remembered music played while they were in the womb, far lower standards would be acceptable just because someone decides such a claim would not be extraordinary. It makes me angry - either chuck out most of psychology, or apply some common standard to all research.

Well OK, using that arbitrary criterion, maybe we just have to conclude that certain scientific truths are for ever inaccessible!

Seems crazy to me!

David