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  • #16
    Originally posted by Nightrain View Post
    As you are probably aware, relaxing atmosphere, etc. has also been a characteristic of improved psi phenomenon. So, would you say that it is the atmosphere that gives improved phenomeon? Or, wouldn't it make more sense to simply admit that it enhances the effect in some way?
    Sure, but it worked equally well with the sham.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Arouet View Post
      Sure, but it worked equally well with the sham.
      Not equally well, but somewhat better than the sham.

      And, how would you explain the fact that the effect of acupuncture was noticed in each MRI scan?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Nightrain View Post
        Not equally well, but somewhat better than the sham.

        And, how would you explain the fact that the effect of acupuncture was noticed in each MRI scan?
        Without controls how do we know what is being noticed on the MRI? By the way, I couldn't find a link to the actual study in the article, do you have it?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Arouet View Post
          Without controls how do we know what is being noticed on the MRI? By the way, I couldn't find a link to the actual study in the article, do you have it?
          I haven't found the abstract, but only several articles that referenced it.
          Correction: Here is where you can download information:

          In this August, 2010 article, Studying Acupuncture, One Needle Prick at a Time By TARA PARKER-POPE, you'll find a fairly well-balanced treatment of the issue, and I noticed the following:

          This year, researchers at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit solved the problem of creating a sham acupuncture treatment: they didn’t have one. Instead, they compared acupuncture to a proven remedy — the drug Effexor, an antidepressant that has been shown to significantly reduce hot flashes in breast cancer patients.

          The results were striking. Acupuncture relieved hot flashes just as well as Effexor, with fewer side effects. The acupuncture recipients reported more energy and even an increased sex drive, compared with women using Effexor.

          “There are some things you can’t study the same way we do with drugs,” said Dr. Eleanor M. Walker, director of breast radiation oncology at the Henry Ford Health System. “The thing that can’t be argued in my study is the duration of the effect. It lasts, and the placebo effect doesn’t last once you stop a treatment.”
          In a more recent article:
          Dr Nina Theysohn, who will present the research in Chicago on Tuesday at the annual meeting of the Radiological Society of North America, said: "Activation of brain areas involved in pain perception was significantly reduced or modulated under acupuncture."

          These areas included the contralateral supplementary motor area, somatosensory cortex, precuneus bilateral insula and ipsilateral somatomotor cortex. All are involved in pain perception.

          The scans also showed that acupuncture worked as a placebo, said the researchers, affecting activity in areas that govern expectation and comprehension of pain such as the anterior insula.

          Dr Theysohn said: "Acupuncture is supposed to act through at least two mechanisms—nonspecific expectancy-based effects and specific modulation of the incoming pain signal.

          "Our findings support that both these nonspecific and specific mechanisms exist, suggesting that acupuncture can help relieve pain."
          I don't deny that the placebo effect may be a huge component of the apparent and proven effect on pain. However, it is also clear that the effect can be observed in the physical brain by different methods including MRI observations.

          At the very least, one should not argue against the observation that something is going on here that science is not yet able to explain. Let me ask the question, if you were left with no recourse, wouldn't you be curious enough to try acupuncture?
          Last edited by Nightrain; December 28th, 2010, 09:36 PM.

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          • #20
            I found this blog to be quite interesting, and might provide some additional reference material for more intelligent conversation, rather than the ridiculous "toothpick" comment.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Nightrain View Post
              I haven't found the abstract, but only several articles that referenced it.

              In this August, 2010 article, Studying Acupuncture, One Needle Prick at a Time By TARA PARKER-POPE, you'll find a fairly well-balanced treatment of the issue, and I noticed the following:



              In a more recent article:
              Hmm, why get rid of the control? The real thing to determine is how acupuncture compares to a placebo. The study I linked suggests that the everything surrounding real acupuncture: the personal attention, the atmosphere, etc. may be effective. This could pave the way for relaxation therapies to advance. If the acupuncture itself is largely irrelevant, we should drop it.


              I don't deny that the placebo effect may be a huge component of the apparent and proven effect on pain. However, it is also clear that the effect can be observed in the physical brain by different methods including MRI observations.
              What the FMRI study should do is also compare real acupuncture to sham.

              Or, it may be that simply poking the skin will deactivate pain receptors or some such. That may be so. In that case though, the treatment can be done much more cheaply, and just as effectively. It may be that you don't need a highly trained technician to do it. There are all things that should be considered.

              At the very least, one should not argue against the observation that something is going on here that science is not yet able to explain. Let me ask the question, if you were left with no recourse, wouldn't you be curious enough to try acupuncture?
              Here's the thing: if acupuncture works: it will be testable - even if we don't fully understand it. It seems that it is testable. And remember, no one is saying that some patients are not experiencing pain relief (although I know people who have tried it to no effect whatsoever).

              Would I try it left with no recourse? As it stands right now I'd have my wife just poke me with toothpicks while listening to relaxing music and burning a lavender candle! But if its covered by my benefits plan? I might try it, why not, will at least be an interesting experience at the very least!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Nightrain View Post
                I found this blog to be quite interesting, and might provide some additional reference material for more intelligent conversation, rather than the ridiculous "toothpick" comment.
                I'll take a look, but why was the toothpick comment ridiculous? I thought we were having intelligent conversation. You are quite hard to please.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Arouet View Post
                  I'll take a look, but why was the toothpick comment ridiculous? I thought we were having intelligent conversation. You are quite hard to please.
                  It is mentioned in the latest blog reference that I provided. Certain uninformed attitudes become evident when serious efforts are denigrated by using terms that reflect profound arrogance and sarcasm. It would be nice to see a bit more respect for long established cultural practices.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nightrain View Post
                    It is mentioned in the latest blog reference that I provided. Certain uninformed attitudes become evident when serious efforts are denigrated by using terms that reflect profound arrogance and sarcasm. It would be nice to see a bit more respect for long established cultural practices.
                    IIRC some of these experiments did indeed use toothpicks as part of the sham control.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Arouet View Post
                      IIRC some of these experiments did indeed use toothpicks as part of the sham control.
                      The very fact that toothpicks were used in what was called "sham" control very clearly identifies the uninformed bias of the experimenters. They have overlooked a very real possibility that the mere application of pressure on certain parts of the body can have an effect on pain. They conducted the entire experiment on the possibly erroneous premise that the needles alone are what proponents claim to be the only proper tool. If they had truly employed the expertise of real experts in the field, they would have been warned of this issue. As it turns out, their "sham" data turned out to be almost as effective as needles. It is interesting to note that in other tests both methods were far more effective than all other methods. A true control designed to test for placebo effect would have involved anything that didn't involve physical contact. Yet, even then, one has to assume that other techniques like Reiki or psychic healing are impossible.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Nightrain View Post
                        The very fact that toothpicks were used in what was called "sham" control very clearly identifies the uninformed bias of the experimenters. They have overlooked a very real possibility that the mere application of pressure on certain parts of the body can have an effect on pain.
                        That may be true: in which case poking people with needles is an absolutely unacceptable risk. However, the study suggests that it wasn't the poking which had an effect, but all the acoutrements of the therapy. When the needles or toothpicks were put in without the rest of it, there was no effect.

                        A true control designed to test for placebo effect would have involved anything that didn't involve physical contact.
                        Not if we're trying to figure out if the needles have any effect. The subject has to think they're getting needles.

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                        • #27
                          Energy Medicine

                          Acupuncture is effective against cigarette smoking and helping you get rid of habits that have been haunting you way back. Also, one thing that help me out is Energy medicine. It helped me identify the weaknesses, problems that is making me hold on to smoking. Im jut sharing with you the thing that helped e out. You just need to know what your problem is and you are willing to make a decision.

                          you must first identify the issue you want to delete (cigarette smoking). Try to bring that problem into your midline. You undergo corrections through the 5 categories of corrections namely: emotional, mental, psychological, physical empathy and spiritual.

                          Also included is the category of unknown or others wherein there are issues that do not fall under any of the 5 categories. You can do a shortcut of the method if you try to identify a number for that issues but still going through the 6 categories including the unknown. Try to delete all the associations with that number until you reach the point of neutrality or zero. Meaning you do not have any negative feelings or the issue is already gone, leaving you feeling better.

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