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The powerful Nocebo effect!

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  • Interesting Ian
    replied
    Originally posted by JLI View Post
    What effect? Are you seing unicorns again?
    My intuition tells me that a digit between 0 and F will not have an impact.
    Still refusing to answer any questions whatsoever

    People dying where there's nothing physically wrong with them. If you don't believe in the nocebo effect then what about hexes?

    No idea what your second sentence means. Try communicating in English.

    Leave a comment:


  • Interesting Ian
    replied
    Originally posted by JLI View Post
    Without the science we only have our intuition. If I understand you correctly, your intuition tells you that a placebo can do almost everything. My intuition tells me another thing. Fair tests or science if you will is a good way to check out whose intuition is most accurate.
    You truly are clueless!

    Putting forward an argument does not equate to intuition.

    I want you to address the questions I asked earlier. Why is it the case that a conscious state of belief cannot have a deleterious effect on the body, where's a conscious state of anxiety can?

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
    replied
    Originally posted by Interesting Ian
    It is absolutely ludicrous to suppose that voluntarily killing yourself comes under the nocebo effect!

    Sorry Paul but I'm not going to waste any more time with you.
    I have no idea how you are distinguishing voluntary from involuntary acts. But I wasn't only talking about suicide, so why go off in a huff?

    ~~ Paul
    Last edited by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos; November 18th, 2011, 06:35 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Interesting Ian
    replied
    Originally posted by JLI View Post
    Blood pressure fluctuates all day long. So I don't think that is where you should look for a cause of death in an otherwise healthy person.
    Interesting Ian
    This is nonsense. High blood pressure can precipitate a stroke or heart attack. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to do loads of exercise all the time in order to keep my BP down! (I'm in excellent health apart from high blood pressure).
    It is not nonsense. The blood pressure during exercise is significantly higher than during rest. It is not even controversial.
    Let's remind yourself of your claim. High blood pressure does not play any role in precipitating death. As you well know it is this which I'm saying is nonsense.

    But on a side note. I'll ask you the same question as I asked my doctor. Depending on how many miles I've run, my BP is down hugely immediately after exercise. We're talking about approximately 3 mins after I've stopped running. Is there not a discrepancy between this fact and your claim (and my doctors claim) that BP goes way up during exercise?? Because if you're right there must be an absolutely momentous drop in BP in a very short period of time after one stops exercising! That certainly isn't the case with my pulse which is still normally about 70- 80 after the 3 minutes (roundabout 55 normally although has been as low as 42 on first getting up on the morning).

    Are skeptics capable of ever answering anything??
    Not to your satisfaction - it seems.
    Not to your satisfaction - it seems.
    Well yeah, you failed to answer anything in this post too! You chose instead to respond with a complete non-sequitur!

    Leave a comment:


  • XXII
    replied
    Originally posted by JLI View Post
    Without the science we only have our intuition. If I understand you correctly, your intuition tells you that a placebo can do almost everything. My intuition tells me another thing. Fair tests or science if you will is a good way to check out whose intuition is most accurate.
    Can you please offer a working definition of Science?

    I'm really unsure wether you are serious when claiming that without science we have only our intuition, whatever that means.

    Leave a comment:


  • JLI
    replied
    Originally posted by Interesting Ian View Post
    OK JLI what do you think about hexes? Might they be at work rather than the nocebo effect?
    What effect? Are you seing unicorns again?
    My intuition tells me that a digit between 0 and F will not have an impact.

    Leave a comment:


  • JLI
    replied
    Originally posted by Interesting Ian View Post
    I suspect it's vastly bigger an effect than we commonly suppose.

    Forget your science. Where are your actual arguments??
    Without the science we only have our intuition. If I understand you correctly, your intuition tells you that a placebo can do almost everything. My intuition tells me another thing. Fair tests or science if you will is a good way to check out whose intuition is most accurate.
    Last edited by JLI; November 18th, 2011, 01:55 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JLI
    replied
    Originally posted by Interesting Ian View Post
    This is nonsense. High blood pressure can precipitate a stroke or heart attack. Otherwise I wouldn't bother to do loads of exercise all the time in order to keep my BP down! (I'm in excellent health apart from high blood pressure).
    It is not nonsense. The blood pressure during exercise is significantly higher than during rest. It is not even controversial.
    Are skeptics capable of ever answering anything??
    Not to your satisfaction - it seems.

    Leave a comment:


  • Interesting Ian
    replied
    It is absolutely ludicrous to suppose that voluntarily killing yourself comes under the nocebo effect!

    Sorry Paul but I'm not going to waste any more time with you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
    replied
    Originally posted by Interesting Ian
    Insanity causes me to perceive a Pink Unicorn? Or causes me to lie about seeing one?
    Take your pick.

    No matter. This is the same reason why people are reluctant to report their NDEs -- especially prior to 1975. They didn't want materialists to think they're insane.
    But I was talking about a jury, not materialists. Is the typical jury okay with you reporting that you saw a pink unicorn?

    Are you suggesting that someone's report of a pink unicorn is quite likely evidence of actual pink unicorns and only very unlikely evidence of insanity?

    ~~ Paul
    Last edited by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos; November 17th, 2011, 06:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
    replied
    Originally posted by Interesting Ian
    You're not listening. It's not just a chain of physical cause and effect, but chains.

    P might not come about purely due to E. Perhaps F,G,H,I and K need to be present or be occurring too. That is to say contemporaneously with E.
    Of course. I even added another chain in my post #40.

    Again we're not talking about voluntary behaviour which will lead to our deaths eg reckless driving. But rather a belief -- specifically a belief that we are ill (for nocebo) or we are in good health (for placebo).
    Why is reckless driving voluntary but a belief is not? And what if the belief leads inexorably to the reckless driving? Why are we making this voluntary/involuntary distinction?

    And by this we do not mean that this belief will lead to other behaviour with this behaviour being a link in a chain of cause and effect leading to our deaths, but rather that this belief will be the catalyst for deleterious or beneficent processes occurring in our bodies.
    What's the difference? You're making an awful lot of distinctions without clearly explaining why. Where's the line between a behavior and a health-related physical process?

    So here we're thinking that the belief is a crucial ingredient, not that it does everything all by itself (F,G,H,I and K are needed in addition to E).
    I never suggested it would do it all by itself. You appear to have missed P, Q, and R in my diagram.

    A -> B -> C -> D -> E(state) -> P -> Q -> R -> X(death)

    Anyway, I think we agree that E can contribute to X. The question is whether we can crisply distinguish E from A, B, C, D, F, G, P, Q, and R. That is, whether there really is a "mental state in and of itself."

    ~~ Paul

    Leave a comment:


  • Interesting Ian
    replied
    OK JLI what do you think about hexes? Might they be at work rather than the nocebo effect?

    Leave a comment:


  • Interesting Ian
    replied
    Originally posted by porker View Post
    What?

    Forget your Arguments they are Worthless words, where is your science?

    Oh? Nowhere? Reason perhaps?
    For a kick off it won't get us very far. I suspect it will be similar to psi where proponents claim there's overwhelming evidence for psi, and skeptics emphatically assert there's none whatsoever!

    I see no reason to see why it should be different for the placebo/nocebo issue.

    No what we need to establish is why JLI and other skeptics think that nocebos/placebos are so unlikely -- that they cannot possibly play any role in a person dying, or indeed not dying.

    So we need to establish why a mental state of anxiety can lead to death (since anxiety causes HBP and HBP can lead to death), but the mental state of a belief cannot.

    Not sure how much science can help here?

    Leave a comment:


  • porker
    replied
    Originally posted by Interesting Ian View Post
    I suspect it's vastly bigger an effect than we commonly suppose.

    Forget your science. Where are your actual arguments??
    What?

    Forget your Arguments they are Worthless words, where is your science?

    Oh? Nowhere? Reason perhaps?

    Leave a comment:


  • Interesting Ian
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Post
    Fair enough. With enough caveats, I'm willing to call your report of a pink unicorn evidence of something. Two of the caveats are:
    • We are not using the term evidence as in scientific evidence.
    • In the case of a pink unicorn, your report is stunningly more likely evidence for your insanity than it is evidence that pink unicorns exist.


    ~~ Paul
    Insanity causes me to perceive a Pink Unicorn? Or causes me to lie about seeing one?

    No matter. This is the same reason why people are reluctant to report their NDEs -- especially prior to 1975. They didn't want materialists to think they're insane.

    Leave a comment:

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