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The powerful Nocebo effect!

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Interesting Ian
    It is absolutely ludicrous to suppose that voluntarily killing yourself comes under the nocebo effect!

    Sorry Paul but I'm not going to waste any more time with you.
    I have no idea how you are distinguishing voluntary from involuntary acts. But I wasn't only talking about suicide, so why go off in a huff?

    ~~ Paul
    Last edited by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos; November 18th, 2011, 06:35 AM.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by JLI View Post
      Without the science we only have our intuition. If I understand you correctly, your intuition tells you that a placebo can do almost everything. My intuition tells me another thing. Fair tests or science if you will is a good way to check out whose intuition is most accurate.
      You truly are clueless!

      Putting forward an argument does not equate to intuition.

      I want you to address the questions I asked earlier. Why is it the case that a conscious state of belief cannot have a deleterious effect on the body, where's a conscious state of anxiety can?

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      • #63
        Originally posted by JLI View Post
        What effect? Are you seing unicorns again?
        My intuition tells me that a digit between 0 and F will not have an impact.
        Still refusing to answer any questions whatsoever

        People dying where there's nothing physically wrong with them. If you don't believe in the nocebo effect then what about hexes?

        No idea what your second sentence means. Try communicating in English.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Post
          I have no idea how you are distinguishing voluntary from involuntary acts. But I wasn't only talking about suicide, so why go off in a huff?

          ~~ Paul
          Haven't gone off in a huff! I'm going to stay here and nag JLI for some answers.

          I don't want to discuss voluntary and involuntary acts. The distinction is very obvious, although acting on autopilot and differing streams of consciousness as in post-hypnotic suggestion, split brain people, automatic writing, multiple personality disorder etc make it more interesting and involved.

          But I don't regard this issue as having anything to do with placebos/nocebos!!

          I want to know why if feeling anxiety, stress, anger can lead to death (via HBP) then why can't a belief that one is dying precipitate (be a crucial ingredient) in ones death??

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Interesting Ian
            I don't want to discuss voluntary and involuntary acts. The distinction is very obvious, although acting on autopilot and differing streams of consciousness as in post-hypnotic suggestion, split brain people, automatic writing, multiple personality disorder etc make it more interesting and involved.
            The distinction is not obvious at all, as you just pointed out.

            I want to know why if feeling anxiety, stress, anger can lead to death (via HBP) then why can't a belief that one is dying precipitate (be a crucial ingredient) in ones death??
            But wouldn't that belief lead to anxiety and stress? In which case it is difficult to make a distinction. Also, you are placing restrictions on how that belief should lead to death. For example, you keep dismissing my suggestion that a belief could lead one to sacrifice his life for his child. So you are talking about an "involuntary" chain of events from belief to death. And yet, as you just admitted above, the distinction between voluntary and involuntary is difficult to make.

            I think you're oversimplifying. But for the sake of argument, I will agree that a belief could lead, through a mostly involuntary path, to death. Ultimately, though, isn't this an empirical question?

            ~~ Paul

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Post
              The distinction is not obvious at all, as you just pointed out.


              But wouldn't that belief lead to anxiety and stress? In which case it is difficult to make a distinction.
              Well yes, this will be why JLI keeps refusing to answer my questions. Cos it's transparently obvious that the nocebo/placebo effects do exist.

              It's just one more example of skeptics/materialists denying the transparently obvious!




              Also, you are placing restrictions on how that belief should lead to death. For example, you keep dismissing my suggestion that a belief could lead one to sacrifice his life for his child.
              Yes a belief can lead to death through voluntary actions. But that's not a nocebo effect since it involves behaviour.

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              • #67
                I may have missed something. Is there supposed to be something psi related to this nocebo effect? i

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Interesting Ian
                  Well yes, this will be why JLI keeps refusing to answer my questions. Cos it's transparently obvious that the nocebo/placebo effects do exist.

                  It's just one more example of skeptics/materialists denying the transparently obvious!
                  I'm not denying it.

                  Yes a belief can lead to death through voluntary actions. But that's not a nocebo effect since it involves behaviour.
                  But getting anxious and raising blood pressure is not behavior? And all behavior is voluntary?

                  ~~ Paul
                  -------------------------------------------
                  In other words, it only seems simple if you actually understand it so little that you have no comprehension of how complicated it actually is. This appears to be exactly the case. ---Stimpson J. Cat
                  Last edited by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos; November 18th, 2011, 08:30 AM.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Arouet
                    I may have missed something. Is there supposed to be something psi related to this nocebo effect?
                    Of course, silly. Skeptics deny it, so it must be psi.

                    ~~ Paul

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Post
                      I'm not denying it.


                      But getting anxious and raising blood pressure is not behavior? And all behavior is voluntary?

                      ~~ Paul
                      -------------------------------------------
                      In other words, it only seems simple if you actually understand it so little that you have no comprehension of how complicated it actually is. This appears to be exactly the case. ---Stimpson J. Cat

                      Anxiety will almost certainly precipitate behaviour, but is not in and of itself behaviour.

                      And stop quoting bloody Stimpy! (although this is one of the rare occasions I agree with him)

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Arouet View Post
                        I may have missed something. Is there supposed to be something psi related to this nocebo effect? i

                        Yes, psychokinesis. And this is also obviously involved with the voluntary movement of our limbs.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Interesting
                          Anxiety will almost certainly precipitate behaviour, but is not in and of itself behaviour.
                          Anxiety isn't behavior? Does behavior have to involve motor muscles or something?

                          And if all behavior is voluntary, then neither breathing nor Tourette tics are behavior.

                          ~~ Paul

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos View Post
                            Anxiety isn't behavior? Does behavior have to involve motor muscles or something?

                            And if all behavior is voluntary, then neither breathing nor Tourette tics are behavior.

                            ~~ Paul

                            I said anxiety isn't behaviour. The fact that behaviour can be involuntary and anxiety is involuntary doesn't make anxiety behaviour!

                            Elementary logic my dear chap!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Interesting Ian
                              I said anxiety isn't behaviour.
                              You must have missed my question mark: "Anxiety isn't behavior?"

                              Why do you think anxiety isn't behavior?

                              The fact that behaviour can be involuntary and anxiety is involuntary doesn't make anxiety behaviour!
                              Of course not. Anxiety is behavior anyway.

                              And you said:
                              Originally posted by you
                              It is absolutely ludicrous to suppose that voluntarily killing yourself comes under the nocebo effect!
                              If you're now agreeing that there is involuntary behavior, then why assume suicide is voluntary?

                              ~~ Paul

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Interesting Ian View Post
                                No idea what your second sentence means. Try communicating in English.
                                If a "hex" is not a hexidecimal digit, I have no idea what it is. English is not my native language. I you think my English is bad, then feel free to disregard the posts I make.
                                Well yes, this will be why JLI keeps refusing to answer my questions. Cos it's transparently obvious that the nocebo/placebo effects do exist.
                                I am sorry that I don't answer all your questions the second you ask them, but I do have a life outside this forum. I have not denied the existence of nocebo/placebo effects. I have even linked to what I consider serious research on both subjects.

                                Now for your theory that hypertension led to the death of the person who was told that he would be dead in 2 months: We are not told that the autopsy showed cerebrovascular lesion or changes in the heart that would support your theory. Those would have been important findings in the autopsy.

                                I can't promise you that I will be much online in the weekend, so if you can't wait for me to answer your questions, you might as well not ask them. Let's face it. You don't really give a damn about my answers anyway.

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