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Near Death Experiences Debunked

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  • Near Death Experiences Debunked

    Near-Death Experiences Reproduced in First-Ever Experiment

    Researchers have replicated NDE's in the lab:

    Head researcher Michael Raduga explained, "Our experiment finally makes it possible to re-evaluate the findings of near-death experience researchers like Dr. Raymond Moody. For the first time, we can not only collect and analyze near-death experiences, but also deliberately reproduce them. This achievement casts doubt on earlier theories regarding the nature of this phenomenon."
    More problems for the soul

  • #2
    Hey there Sniff,
    Confirmation bias much? Have you actually read the study? The study was conducted by this guy:
    Michael Raduga, M.Raduga | Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)

    A person that I would suspect you would classify as a woo-peddler if he did not conduct this study. He teaches people astral-projection etc, and still believes a 'separation' occurs.

    I suggest you read studies in detail, instead of trawling Google for "near-death experiences debunked" and posting the first interesting article you find...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CyRus View Post
      Hey there Sniff,
      Confirmation bias much? Have you actually read the study? The study was conducted by this guy:
      Michael Raduga, M.Raduga | Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)

      A person that I would suspect you would classify as a woo-peddler if he did not conduct this study. He teaches people astral-projection etc, and still believes a 'separation' occurs.

      I suggest you read studies in detail, instead of trawling Google for "near-death experiences debunked" and posting the first interesting article you find...
      Very interesting link, thank you Cyrus.
      The point i was trying to make is that modern Neurobiology is on the way to making so many philosophical debates about consciousness redundant. There are many materialistic ideas about consciousness and the notion of a soul in neuroscience looks like a debate about the geometry of a flat earth, that is, the soul is outdated and irrelevant, sadly.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sniffy the Atheist View Post
        There are many materialistic ideas about consciousness and the notion of a soul in neuroscience looks like a debate about the geometry of a flat earth, that is, the soul is outdated and irrelevant, sadly.
        Sounds interesting, can you point us to the specific "ideas" and science that you're talking about?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Keith W. View Post
          Sounds interesting, can you point us to the specific "ideas" and science that you're talking about?
          Hi Keith, this is an interesting video by the Churchlands: Patricia and Paul Churchland on Consciousness - YouTube

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CyRus View Post
            Hey there Sniff,
            Confirmation bias much? Have you actually read the study? The study was conducted by this guy:
            Michael Raduga, M.Raduga | Out-of-Body Experience (OBE)

            A person that I would suspect you would classify as a woo-peddler if he did not conduct this study. He teaches people astral-projection etc, and still believes a 'separation' occurs.

            I suggest you read studies in detail, instead of trawling Google for "near-death experiences debunked" and posting the first interesting article you find...
            I think there's good reason to suspect Sniffy doesn't read anything of what he's linking to.

            Comment


            • #7
              The OBE component is already convincingly explained with certain stimulations to the angular gyrus in the brain. There's nothing new here - that you can introduce OBE's artificially has been know for ages.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sniffy the Atheist View Post
                Near-Death Experiences Reproduced in First-Ever Experiment

                Researchers have replicated NDE's in the lab:



                More problems for the soul


                It states:

                "A comparative analysis demonstrated that the 18 experiment outcomes were fully consistent with a database of 2,900 actual near-death experiences."

                So then there should be some accounts where they reach a border which they understand that if they cross they will die. And some accounts where they have a life review. And many accounts where a state of vastly enhanced cognition is reported. And some accounts where they report an understanding of the ultimate purpose of all things and their role in it etc.

                We can see some examples of these accounts here.

                Nothing of the sort here. Just accounts of lights and tunnels with the occasional meeting of dead relatives. In other words shallow NDEs.

                As I have mentioned before, if NDEs are a glimpse of another reality, then I suspect that when you're not near death but have an "NDE" this will be of a shallow sort, and certainly no encountering of a border and a decision whether to remain or return. And whether such NDEs are spontaneous or artificially induced is unimportant in this context.

                But it says fully consistent with a database of 2,900 actual near-death experiences. So what gives here? The database of 2,900 NDEs were all shallow NDEs lacking borders, life reviews, and enhanced cognition??

                Am I misunderstanding something?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by sbu View Post
                  I think there's good reason to suspect Sniffy doesn't read anything of what he's linking to.
                  Even though he doesn't read all the articles he does happen to post some that are worth reading.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This state mimics that of the anesthesia-induced narcosis that the majority of near-death experiences occur in.
                    I don't know whether the majority of NDEs occur during anesthesia, yet the most relevant ones occur during cardiac arrest. This are the types of NDEs one should compare other experiences with. Also I doubt, that the process of awakening can really be compared to being in anesthesia-incuced narcosis...

                    For the first time, we can not only collect and analyze near-death experiences, but also deliberately reproduce them.
                    From a certain sceptical point of view, one should not "count" NDEs without cardiac arrest as NDEs. So to me it looks even more suspicious, to claim people with certain induced experiences have had a NDE...

                    Also, it is possible to induce NDE-like experiences by certain drugs. Still this doesn't tell us anything about the reality of the experience.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sniffy the Atheist View Post
                      Very interesting link, thank you Cyrus.
                      The point i was trying to make is that modern Neurobiology is on the way to making so many philosophical debates about consciousness redundant. There are many materialistic ideas about consciousness and the notion of a soul in neuroscience looks like a debate about the geometry of a flat earth, that is, the soul is outdated and irrelevant, sadly.
                      Materialistic ideas about consciousness are almost all as wildly wrong as the notion of the soul that can leave the body after death. Most materialists don't even consider consciousness as something real - and consciousness surely is the thing we all know we have - or if we can doubt our own consciousness then there is nothing we can trust. Not the existence of this forum - not the existence of the outside world etc. etc.

                      The way to understand consciousness goes through the understanding of langugage, I think. Understanding the revolution started by Wittgenstein and J.L Austin will lead one to look at consciousness as something that could not have existed without lingustical notion of representation. Why is that important? Well, among other things, it leads us to understand the evolutionary reason behind language and the intertwined way in which it lead to the evolution of consciousness.

                      If you were an alien looking at the human race from an invisible vantage point - then I think you would have to assume that they are free moral agents in order to understand them at all - and that is something that can not be understood within our present scientific paradigm.

                      Lets take the example of the Mall. Surely, the only way to make sense of the individual movements within the pattern of the moving crowds in any Mall in America today, is through accepting the self and the freedom of the will of each person? There is no other way you can make sense of humans in the third person obejctive view of science without postulating the self. Because humans have intentions (i.e. their thoughts are ABOUT something) and they intend to carry them out.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Michael Raduga believes that OBEs are lucid dreams that don't provide evidence of consciousness being outside the body. He calls OBe, lucid dreaming, NDEs, UFO abductions and dreams "the phase state". He lumps them all in together as if it is a valid thing to do.

                        The fact that almost every psi experience has some relation with an altered state of consciousness closely related to dream-like states would appear to bolster his point of view. But it doesn't because the quality of the different psi experiences is different to the kind of induced lucid dreaming he is teaching.

                        It seems that removing the egoic conscious mind and withdrawal of sensory stimuli acts as a condition within which psi experiences are enabled to blossom forth. That they don't always do so is the key point here: there is "something else" at work that gives those experiences and not just the removal of sensory stimuli. That is why artificially produced experiences, whether through sensory deprivation tanks, ganzfeld, meditation, lucid dreaming or tampering with parts of the physical brain don't always contain the qualitatively relevent psi experiences, if in fact they do at all.

                        It is known from research into psi that people who believe that psi operates are much more likely to have psi experiences and that their occurances in terms of percentages are higher. Dean Radin mentions this in his book The Noetic Universe with reference to ganzfeld studies.

                        Studies in hypnotism show that while it might be a special state (state theory) of trance there is also evidence which suggests that the blockage of pain by mental belief is not a special condition of hypnosis but something that anybody can achieve with the right mind set. So what this means is that BELIEF is one of the cheif properties involved in the experience of reality and it probably explains why some people have psychic intuition, some have psychic experiences a few times in their lives, and others have none at all.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Roms View Post
                          Even though he doesn't read all the articles he does happen to post some that are worth reading.
                          They are very interesting. I just find it oddly masochistic to make those conclusion from them without even reading them especially when it clearly makes him depressed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by sbu View Post
                            The OBE component is already convincingly explained with certain stimulations to the angular gyrus in the brain. There's nothing new here - that you can introduce OBE's artificially has been know for ages.
                            They may not be producing a true OBE, according to this IANDS article.

                            It's a pretty good read and I think it shows the claims that OBEs have been produced in the lab are a bit overstated.

                            Out-of-Body Experiences: All in the Brain?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by EthanT View Post
                              They may not be producing a true OBE, according to this IANDS article.

                              It's a pretty good read and I think it shows the claims that OBEs have been produced in the lab are a bit overstated.

                              Out-of-Body Experiences: All in the Brain?
                              This has been discussed a number of times already. I don't find the IANDS response very convincingly and it's also outdated. There's more recent research coming to the same conclusion about the angular gyrus. The latest research Sniffy is pointing to is just even more evidence that there is nothing paranormal about an NDE.

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