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Custom Universe - Has the universe been fine tuned for us?

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  • Custom Universe - Has the universe been fine tuned for us?

    This program was shown last week on ABC Australia.

    It's a weekly science show called Catalyst.

    The top left video is the half hour show and there are four extended interviews below with Dr Sean Carroll, Prof Paul Davies, Prof lawrence Krauss and Prof Brianne Greene.

    It's for the layperson but it's very well done.

    Catalyst - Special Edition - Custom Universe

  • #2
    Couldn't it also be that we exist simply because we fit the universe? Ie we're fine tuned to it? Like the water in a puddle is fine tuned to the hole in the road?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Obiwan View Post
      Couldn't it also be that we exist simply because we fit the universe? Ie we're fine tuned to it? Like the water in a puddle is fine tuned to the hole in the road?
      Haven't watched the videos yet, I sure this point would be included in some way.
      Fine tuning includes the balance of forces that allow stars, planets and galaxies to form and allow the puddle and the hole to exist.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by LoneShaman View Post
        Haven't watched the videos yet, I sure this point would be included in some way.
        Fine tuning includes the balance of forces that allow stars, planets and galaxies to form and allow the puddle and the hole to exist.
        Me neither but it's a bit of a chicken and egg question isn't it?
        Last edited by Obiwan; September 3rd, 2013, 10:14 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Obiwan View Post
          Me neither but it's a bit of a chicken and egg questions isn't it?

          It's chickens all the way down.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by LoneShaman View Post
            It's chickens all the way down.
            Lmao

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            • #7
              Maybe, I'm not a scientist, but, if on the other hand, the universe *isn't* predisposed to life, that makes Earth even more special.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Antiquitus View Post
                Maybe, I'm not a scientist, but, if on the other hand, the universe *isn't* predisposed to life, that makes Earth even more special.
                This is what makes me giggle (in a lack of a better world). The Universe is such a horrible place so inhospitable that it cannot be fine tuned... Yet it was a good enough place for a single cell to evolve throughout time into human beings.
                I have to say that the way the Western world sees the world/universe is rather appalling. It behaves like a spoiled child "never satisfied with anything".
                People who argue the fine tuning should push it one step further. It cannot be fine tuned because human beings are bound to die forgetting nicely that to each death corresponds a birth and if people weren't to die they would never value Life... but anyway I am digressing...

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                • #9
                  It mystifies me that these physicists will declare with confidence that according to the rules of entropy, all the molecules of air in my room could spontaneously assemble into one single cubic centimeter of space, and I would quickly suffocate. But then they say that the odds of this happening are so small, that we would never see it in the time frame of this universe. . . and that fact defines the 'arrow of time'. . . .

                  okay.

                  And then when they go to explain the unbelievable 'fine-tuning' of the trillions of components necessary to create consciousness out of 'nothingness', they accept this obvious miracle as if it was a quite natural function where infinite possibilities will "always" provide exactly the correct end result. . .

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by libertystreet View Post
                    It mystifies me that these physicists will declare with confidence that according to the rules of entropy, all the molecules of air in my room could spontaneously assemble into one single cubic centimeter of space, and I would quickly suffocate. But then they say that the odds of this happening are so small, that we would never see it in the time frame of this universe. . . and that fact defines the 'arrow of time'. . . .
                    The Arrow of Time is still an ongoing mystery in physics, which is far from solved. The Entropy ideas around it are more complex than popsci makes them sound too.

                    Originally posted by libertystreet View Post
                    And then when they go to explain the unbelievable 'fine-tuning' of the trillions of components necessary to create consciousness out of 'nothingness', they accept this obvious miracle as if it was a quite natural function where infinite possibilities will "always" provide exactly the correct end result. . .
                    Part of the fine tuning is related to the entropy problem above - i.e. why did the Universe start in a unlikely state of very low entropy

                    I'm not sure it is correct to say physicists just accept these "miracles". They are hard at work with String Theory tied to Inflationary Cosmology, in using these theories to make our Universe into a statistical fluke within a giant multiverse. Within that multiverse there could be many universes that did not get the "correct end result" for life and would look drastically different from ours.

                    But, I get your point. How can one buy into all this, yet not even consider NDEs, psi, etc. That's the power a worldview can hold over a person, I guess.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Roms View Post
                      This is what makes me giggle (in a lack of a better world). The Universe is such a horrible place so inhospitable that it cannot be fine tuned... Yet it was a good enough place for a single cell to evolve throughout time into human beings.
                      This is the crux of the ID debate; Whether or not a cell has enough relative macro-evolutionary power to evolve on its own.

                      Your argument is like saying: " If cancer is so bad, then why is there medicine to treat it? "

                      It's self-referential, and bring in the assumption that cells did not evolve with 'help'.

                      It cannot be fine tuned because human beings are bound to die forgetting nicely that to each death corresponds a birth and if people weren't to die they would never value Life... but anyway I am digressing...
                      That's an incoherent concept. Not every death corresponds to a birth. If that was the case, humanity would never go extinct.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Iyace View Post
                        That's an incoherent concept. Not every death corresponds to a birth. If that was the case, humanity would never go extinct.
                        Of course it does. I think you misunderstood me. What I meant to say is "you will die because you were born one day".

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                        • #13
                          I often watch natural history TV shows and get to wondering about how come everything on our own little world is just right too. Just enough water, just the right sized moon, tectonic plate movements resulting in the water cycle (rain>rivers>oceans>rain), the right gasses in the atmosphere, complimentary life forms (plants produce oxygen for animals, animals breathe out carbon dioxide for plants). I'm sure there are many examples of these "fortunate coincidences" and I think the fine tuning comes a lot closer to home than the usual cosmological constants, etc.

                          I gather the law of big numbers is invoked again to explain this - we just happen to live on a planet that has all the right conditions. If I remember correctly though, don't some scientists maintain that this is why they believe we may be the only such planet in the universe?

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                          • #14
                            Thanks for the link Poop... I'm off to watch

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by EthanT View Post

                              I'm not sure it is correct to say physicists just accept these "miracles".
                              I think part of the problem is (as usual) the Media. . . In the good old days you had journalists, trained in objectivity, reporting on scientific discoveries. And now, most of the reporting is done by the researchers themselves, who quite naturally have a pronounced bias toward their own materialist world-view. They are, in effect, 'too close' to the evidence. . . .

                              I mean, if 14 billion years is not enough time for simple gas molecules to randomly arrive in one little place in my room, then how could one billion years be enough time for complex organic life to randomly arise on the young earth ? I'm not religious, but I'd say that a supernatural explanation versus a chance miracle is pretty much a 50/50 speculation. And that's the way an independent journalist should report it.

                              But Krauss and Carroll present their guesswork with such an air of certainty that the viewer is quietly coerced into believing that the mechanistic answer is (somehow) intellectually superior. And because it's human nature to want to be included in "the smart crowd", materialism becomes the surrogate religion.

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